A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[Tacachale]

Some good thoughts here. But I think those negatives are probably overstated.

So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.

1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition.  You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other.  It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.

True, unless they included the old City Hall location. Then at least that part could be connected to the Hyatt rather easily. We could also close down that stretch of Market Street. - Closing streets that lead to the waterfront?

It's one option, yes. There could still be a pedestrian walkway to get to the river.

2) It is waterfront land

Ok?  It's highest and best use in not an exhibit hall

Maybe, but it would be a good use of land considering the waterfront hotel that's already there.

3) No room for expansion

It doesn't seem likely we'll need to expand it, especially if it includes the Courthouse lot, the City Hall lot and the Hyatt.  Again, closing streets that lead to the waterfront.  I'm not even sure that is allowed by City Code.

The street wouldn't need to be closed off (though it could be). But expansion is probably not necessary regardless.

4) No parking

This is the biggest problem.

5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.

Yes, there are. There are many empty lots within blocks of this site.  There are some surface parking lots near by, but they are actively used.  Not insurmountable but not vacant.

The point is there are plenty of places within blocks where new hotels could go.

6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site

True, but Bay Street is on the list for Skyway expansion. There are also buses. The transit center isn't really connected to much even if it's the hub.  It would be connected to the convention center if it stays where it is.

Correct, but it's not connected to much else without expansion. Expansion is necessary regardless of what happens with the convention center.

7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.
Says who? The Hyatt handles loading behind the building; something similar could be done with any others. 
There is no "behind this building" at this location.

This is all hypothetical, but one option that pops into my head are building the dock at the western part of the alley where the Hyatt already does its loading.

8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)

I don't understand this one.  SMG controls the current PO.  They are going to have to control then meeting and exhibit space.  That is how they book conventions.
So build some offices for SMG into the exhibition space, or work a deal with the Hyatt. Not really a big deal.

9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive

So keep it limited. The Prime Osborn isn't vertical.  Lakelander is talking about ground level retail, then I presume so amount of space over that.  The exhibit hall will need at a minimum 35' ceilings, and maybe even 50'.  Those are some large blank walls.

10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs.  You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.

I doubt this would be much of a big deal. Either add extra kitchen space, or ferry it over. We do that at UNF to buildings that are much farther apart.  You move food for 500 people down the sidewalk?
We put them in vehicles and drive them where they need to go.

Those are just off the top of my head.

IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.

[Tacachale]

If we need another garage, just for the hell of it, I'd target the JEA site at the SE corner of Ocean & Bay (1/2 block away), the lot at the NE corner of Bay and Newnan (across the street) or the SW corner of Liberty & Forsyth (1/2 block away). Supplement that with JTA's Skyway AV route down Bay, which can directly tie people into massive lots at Everbank Field, the JRTC and Kings Avenue Garage.  You can also beef up the water taxi system to better tie the Southbank and Northbank hotels together with the facility and other destinations along the urban riverfront.

A convention center would never be built with no dedicated parking nearby, whether there's a wider parking problem or not. But it's not insurmountable. I'd think something like the JEA site and adjacent lot could be made into a big garage while sparing the Hermiker and the building next to it.

[thelakelander]

My overall point is that I don't consider parking to be a major problem. There's several lots, garages and surface lots in the near vicinity to handle it.  For example, the Landing needs a certain amount of dedicated parking spaces. At one point, instead of building a new garage, a preliminary deal had been worked out to buy an existing nearby surface lot to serve as that role.  Obviously, it fell through but finding a solution for parking isn't much of a major concern to me, since it will be the same for any site outside of the existing location.

[thelakelander]

To provide a potential idea of the cost to add an exhibition hall, the Sharonville Convention Center (Cincinnati) is considering spending $8 to $10 million to double their exhibition hall to 40,000 SF. That's roughly $500/SF.

Sharonville Convention Center may be poised for expansion

SHARONVILLE – The Sharonville Convention Center could be one step closer to an expansion that would create exhibition space that's not offered elsewhere in Hamilton County....

....The study also agreed that the city is at risk of losing clients as events outgrow Sharonville's maximum 20,500 square-feet of space, concluding that this loss could be significant.

The expansion would double the current space, filling the exhibition gap in Hamilton County. The 40,000 square-foot space would generate about $27.6 million in direct and indirect spending within five years, the study found.

The 2012 renovation of the convention center was built with expansion in mind, Downton said. The exhibit hall has a temporary wall that can be removed easily for the expansion. It was constructed using architectural metal panels instead of masronry, so they could be dismantled more easily for an addition.

Two previous construction studies, by CT Consultants and Megan Construction, outlined the feasibility of expansion, citing the forethought of a temporary wall, yearlong build time, and cost of $8 million to $10 million.

"When the building was built, the space ratio was very well balanced, with the exception of the exhibit hall," Downton said. "We have good ballroom, meeting, and public space. But our exhibit hall is very small and out of alignment with the space in the building. That's verified through both (of the earlier) studies.

Full article: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/local/sharonville/2017/03/10/sharonville-convention-center-may-poised-expansion/99023300/

In addition, a separate deal was put together in 2015 to add a $14 million, 120-unit (select service) Hyatt Place at the convention center.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/04/01/sharonville-convention-center-names-hotel-brand.html

At a similar cost per SF, a 100,000 space next to the Hyatt Riverfront would put you in the range of $40 to $50 million to construct. However, you wouldn't need to worry about adding a hotel, since there's a full service, 1,000 room hotel already in place.





To build from scratch in 2008, the The Dena'ina Civic and Convention Center in downtown Anchorage cost $111 million. It's a three story complex with a 47,400 SF exhibition hall (street level), 11,000 SF of meeting rooms (second level), 25,000 SF ballroom (third level). Assuming something built from the ground up in Jax, needs about double the amount of space, you could be looking at +$200 million for a new full blown convention center (excluding cost to build hotel).  In Anchorage's case, they didn't build a hotel. There's a 20-story, 392 room Marriott one block away.

With the Jags plan showing their own hotel and convention facility, it will be interesting to see how much money they're willing to pour into it, how much they want from taxpayers and their anticipated development timeline.

[FlaBoy]

Another article:

http://jacksonville.com/metro/business/2017-03-26/prime-osborn-convention-center-demand-trade-shows-few-conventions

[FlaBoy]

[Downtown] opportunities were one of the main topics Mayor Lenny Curry covered when he met Wednesday morning with the Times-Union Editorial Board. On Curry's drawing board are possibilities like a convention center and hotel where the old city hall and courthouse now stand, more residences Downtown, more entertainment opportunities, development of the old Shipyards site and either the removal or completion of the Berkman Plaza eyesore.

Interesting tidbit from Ron Littlepage and the Times-Union. Hopefully they are thinking about combining the two properties, getting rid of Market Street south of Bay Street, and incorporating the City Hall Annex Tower into a plan for a Hotel. That would create a ton of hotel rooms on site for conventions.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2017-06-23/ron-littlepage-progress-laura-street-trio-game-changer-downtown

[vicupstate]

Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?     

[thelakelander]

If COJ does something with the old City Hall Annex, they should consider market rate housing.  If they're willing to give up the structure at a significant discount, that could make overall renovation costs more viable to private sector developers.  Nevertheless, I'm glad to hear Curry is talking about moving the convention center.  That's one of the better things his administration can do to help enhance the Northbank atmosphere.

[FlaBoy]

Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?   

Aren't there normally a few hotels around a convention center?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

If they're willing to give up the structure at a significant discount, that could make overall renovation costs more viable to private sector developers. 

Here, I'll write the RFP for them:

Waterfront Government Building to be converted into Ground Floor commercial space & residential units. 
Shell and existing structural members must remain intact during construction.
$5M to be put in escrow by developer upon award of RFP to be refunded within 60 days after C/O.
$15M incentive package to be awarded after C/O of property. (Prop. Appr. has valued at $17M)

Yeah, it's basic, but it covers our ass and basically gives the property away to someone willing to develop it.  If there's no takers, what's lost?  If they bite and bail, the city pockets $5M.  This doesn't seem difficult.

[FlaBoy]

How much time do we think the current Police Memorial Building will remain adequate for JSO? It was built 40 years ago. Maybe 10-20 more years? That has always been a site thrown around, even for a potential convention center expansion years down the line if we did move forward with the Courthouse/Annex site.

[Todd_Parker]

Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?   

Aren't there normally a few hotels around a convention center?

Only if you host the kind of conventions that draw large amounts of visitors. Jacksonville won't host those kind of conventions until they obtain enough attractions/amenities to rival an Orlando, San Diego, or Las Vegas. Until that happens, it will be boat shows and Z-list celebrity comic-cons for downtown Jax.

[FlaBoy]

Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?   

Aren't there normally a few hotels around a convention center?

Only if you host the kind of conventions that draw large amounts of visitors. Jacksonville won't host those kind of conventions until they obtain enough attractions/amenities to rival an Orlando, San Diego, or Las Vegas. Until that happens, it will be boat shows and Z-list celebrity comic-cons for downtown Jax.

I have been to a lot of mid-range convention centers in places like Tampa, Birmingham, Baltimore, Chattanooga, etc. Usually at least two hotels around.

[thelakelander]

Additional hotels tend to come along as the market grows to support their operation.  Growing up in Central Florida, I can say this was definitely the case with Tampa's. I'm not sure downtown Jax's market demands several new hotels but we're getting another one in the form of the Laura Trio soon.  A decent centralized convention center would at least help the stabilize existing hotels like the Hyatt and Omni. If they're successful, more will naturally come.

[Tacachale]

^It'll probably also make it easier to book conferences with an updated center that's actually designed for it, and has nearby lodging.