Mayor Curry wants the Landing back

[Tacachale]

Basically, Rouse built a structure based on a model that wasn't sustainable then, and never became sustainable. The city dropped some other balls like parking, but Rouse also never changed strategies or planned for a renovation of the space to enable more sustainable uses. After Sleiman bought it, he has proposed renovations, but they've mostly involved razing and replacing the structure with boring buildings, and they've required massive public subsidies, so they're not any closer to happening. Sleiman also has a much more erratic relationship with the city than Rouse did; since he's owned it, with the city vacillating between opposing everything he wants, to bending over backward to please him, depending on who's in the mayor's office. Not a good environment for any change to occur.

The saddest thing is that there's no reason that things should be like this. With a much smaller renovation and a focus on the things that actually work about the structure (the courtyard and waterfront restaurants) it could be a lot more successful than it is. It's probable that you could bulk up the restaurant space, open up to Laura Street, etc. for just a few million dollars. But Sleiman will clearly never do that, and the city is unlikely to chip in unless and until we elect another mayor like Brown who's willing to break the bank for Sleiman.

[thelakelander]

Basically, Rouse built a structure based on a model that wasn't sustainable then, and never became sustainable. The city dropped some other balls like parking, but Rouse also never changed strategies or planned for a renovation of the space to enable more sustainable uses.

Rouse was a private company in the business of making a profit. Jacksonville wasn't worth their time from that standpoint, so they cut bait like any good business looking out for their investors would.

After Sleiman bought it, he has proposed renovations, but they've mostly involved razing and replacing the structure with boring buildings, and they've required massive public subsidies, so they're not any closer to happening. Sleiman also has a much more erratic relationship with the city than Rouse did; since he's owned it, with the city vacillating between opposing everything he wants, to bending over backward to please him, depending on who's in the mayor's office. Not a good environment for any change to occur.

This situation is why it's hard for me to focus on Sleiman mismanging the complex.  Its future has literally been undecided since he purchased it.  It's pretty difficult for any tenant to make long term investment in the property under such conditions.  An example of this is Hooters. Despite the Landing's ills, it's still their most profitable location in the region.  However, they won't spend money to update it until some direction on if the center will be there or not is made.

The saddest thing is that there's no reason that things should be like this. With a much smaller renovation and a focus on the things that actually work about the structure (the courtyard and waterfront restaurants) it could be a lot more successful than it is.

I agree with this.  I spent some time walking around the property this morning.  IMO, the structure is fine.  It's just dirty, outdated and in need of renovation.  However, the property is 30 years old now and has never been updated, so the condition isn't surprising.

It's probable that you could bulk up the restaurant space, open up to Laura Street, etc. for just a few million dollars. But Sleiman will clearly never do that, and the city is unlikely to chip in unless and until we elect another mayor like Brown who's willing to break the bank for Sleiman.

If Sleiman is going to sign long-term leases and run it like a shopping center, he's going to have to renovate the structure.  No decent tenant paying a decent amount of rent is going to want to agree to a long term lease with the place staying in its existing condition.  He'd also have to change the tenant mix, so for them to be successful leasing and operating like a shopping center, they won't be following the failed festival marketplace concept either.

I could see a scenario where the place is gutted, the interior mall goes away and that space is partitioned into a lower number of big box spaces.  When you do this, you have the opportunity for retail/dining to face either the courtyard or downtown.  By killing the mall, you create a situation where it also faces and interacts with downtown, without having to demolish the structure.

Also, on the second floor, the food court would be better being restaurants with a riverfront view. That way, they'd maximize leasing revenue potential for a space that can't be generating much right now as a common seating area.  Also, instead of opening it up to Laura Street, the main entrance area facing Laura, is actually a pretty nice open area with high ceilings.  It could easily be transitioned into a small food court/food hall concept with seating spilling out into the interior courtyard and covered plaza facing downtown.

Last, the riverfront buildings are fine where they're at.  Those things could easily fill up with tenants if a decision was made that those buildings would be staying.  The one negative is the width of the riverwalk between the courtyard and Fionn Maccools.  However,  the width would not be a serious issue if the fences separating outdoor dining were removed.

This is why I say, take them up on their threat. Full redevelopment is overkill and it's not the end of the world if there's no opening between Laura and the courtyard.  A renovated and leased shopping center would be a major benefit for downtown.

[TimmyB]

In short terms DT Jacksonville sucks and has for quite sometime which falls on the leaders of the city. There's some momentum going on right now through out all sections but this city has lacked leadership for the last 20 years plus.

Very true.  When we first visited the city in 2009, we fell in love with it, from the Beaches inward.  Downtown was beautiful to look at, but getting around as a pedestrian or cyclist was a joke and there was nothing to get around to, anyway.  We discovered that almost immediately.  It is such a beautiful setting, with the river and many cool buildings, and bridges, etc.  Unfortunately, that will only entertain you for a short time; you need a little more substance than that.  The Landing could be such a focal point of DT; sadly, it seems that it already is, but for the wrong reasons.

[spuwho]

Didnt the new Paramore Garage absolve COJ of any further parking obligations?

Didnt Sleiman come back and want a pedestrian bridge of some kind? (And the city rebuffed)

[thelakelander]

^No, the Suntrust garage doesn't have required number of dedicated parking spaces.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-09-13/story/jacksonville-landing-says-35-million-grant-parking-garage-not-enough

[marcuscnelson]

Okay, so I'm just spitballing here, but what if Curry made a deal with Sleiman and the Florida Times Union, to have him give/sell the Landing back to the city in exchange for the Times Union site, since they want to move out anyway.

In theory, everybody could win. Curry gets the Landing back, Sleiman gets a site he can wipe clean to build a new mall/complex/whatever, and the Union gets rid of the site they didn't want.

Remember this a year ago?

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-06-04/story/times-union-building-offered-sale-or-redevelopment

Maybe it's time to see if that deal is still on the table, and if so, can we make it work.

[KenFSU]

Okay, so I'm just spitballing here, but what if Curry made a deal with Sleiman and the Florida Times Union, to have him give/sell the Landing back to the city in exchange for the Times Union site, since they want to move out anyway.

Maybe it's time to see if that deal is still on the table, and if so, if can we make it work.

Don't think the Times-Union bites unless Curry throws in a 2018 first round pick and Brook Lopez's expiring contract.

Welcome Marcus!

[thelakelander]

Doubt it. The Times-Union doesn't make any money in such a deal. Also, it would be more likely Sleiman received a lowball offer than anything else. There's a lot of bad blood between the parties. I can't imagine COJ trying to help Sleiman out.

[Shirt Tail Johnson]

Curry gets the benefit of a bully pulpit to further vilify an already shrewd character in Sleiman.  The city has consistently reneged on deals with the Landing owners regarding parking.  Sleiman actually tried to cut a deal with the city to forgive the parking in exchange for allowing him to buy the land.  City said No.

The City and its good old boys have been screwing up downtown for years and now I'm supposed to believe that Curry can fix it by taking control of the Landing?  I don't, but many Jacksonville residents seem to think so.   Just a few blocks away ithe symbol to remind us ofs the biggest mismanagement of real estate in Jacksonville history, yet we beg for City government to do something about the Landing.  We are idiots in this town. 

[marcuscnelson]

Doubt it. The Times-Union doesn't make any money in such a deal. Also, it would be more likely Sleiman received a lowball offer than anything else. There's a lot of bad blood between the parties. I can't imagine COJ trying to help Sleiman out.

I see.

What about if the Times-Union sold their site to the city at market price, and the city swapped the site with Sleiman in exchange for full control over the Landing? That way the TU gets their money and the property off their books, Sleiman gets a new site to do whatever he wants, and the city gets the Landing back.

Although it seems that ego is coming to turn out as a big part of this whole issue, and that's not something easy to resolve.

[marcuscnelson]

Okay, so I'm just spitballing here, but what if Curry made a deal with Sleiman and the Florida Times Union, to have him give/sell the Landing back to the city in exchange for the Times Union site, since they want to move out anyway.

Maybe it's time to see if that deal is still on the table, and if so, if can we make it work.

Don't think the Times-Union bites unless Curry throws in a 2018 first round pick and Brook Lopez's expiring contract.

Welcome Marcus!

Thanks! Great to be here. I've been a long time lurker here, and I think it's time to contribute a little.

[thelakelander]

Doubt it. The Times-Union doesn't make any money in such a deal. Also, it would be more likely Sleiman received a lowball offer than anything else. There's a lot of bad blood between the parties. I can't imagine COJ trying to help Sleiman out.

I see.

What about if the Times-Union sold their site to the city at market price, and the city swapped the site with Sleiman in exchange for full control over the Landing? That way the TU gets their money and the property off their books, Sleiman gets a new site to do whatever he wants, and the city gets the Landing back.

Although it seems that ego is coming to turn out as a big part of this whole issue, and that's not something easy to resolve.

Judging from the strong words coming from both camps, I doubt COJ wants to deal with Sleiman on any riverfront site in the downtown core. So, I can't imagine them wanting him on the Times Union site either.  If the politics and bad feelings could be put aside, it wouldn't be that difficult to revamp the Landing.

[Keith-N-Jax]

So basically we are at a stalemate with a prime location of the DT core stalled until someone's jock strap loosens  

[remc86007]

^Or both parties could submit their disputes for binding arbitration so we can get past this silliness, but that won't happen.

It seems to me that if this is going to be (as it seems to already) a public opinion battle, I don't see how Sleiman can beat the mayor. Blaming the city is only going to get him so far, and the further the battle devolves publicly, the worse it will be for Sleiman's other business ventures going forward.

[lastdaysoffla]

Something about the Landing has to change, I know that much. There isn't any attraction there for me. The whole building is so aged and dated. I think whatever replaces it needs to interesting from an architectural standpoint. There was a concept rendering of a redev proposal posted here a year or two ago and it was a rectangle.