City will seek Proposals for Shipyards + Met Park Combined Development

[icarus]

I think I'm the only one wholly unconcerned with the jail.

Unless you're paying incredibly close attention, it really doesn't look that much different than your standard, dated, urban office building.

And if anything, the heightened police presence makes the whole area feel the safer.

The jail was built in the early 90s. With a building like that you hope to get a good 40 or 50 years out of it. At that point we can move it to a better location.

It has nothing to do with the look of the building. It has more to do with bail bond places, shelters next door, and vagrants wandering around after their brief or extended stays asking for money to get to here, there, wherever, and hanging out. It may be unpopular, and we talk about it all the time, but it remains an issue for people going downtown and just the vibe of the area. I agree though that it isn't going away anytime soon.

The functional life of the jail has more than passed.  Cells, originally designed for two occupants, have been modified to house three.  Even with said modifications, inmates are forced to sleep in common areas in makeshift beds.  The State and DOC frequently have to release inmates because the Fire Marshall determines they have exceeded capacity even after shifting inmates to the county prison, "pea farm."

With the moving of the Court House, the proximity argument has basically been invalidated for its current location and the design of the current Courthouse did not really adequately take into consideration the transportation of inmates for court appearances.  As with most things here, our City has been very short sighted on these issues.

Also, rather than focusing on having the Sheriff's office downtown, it would be logical to consider a new location based on functionality and mission coverage.  The current location does not really allow for rapid or easy deployment to the farther reaches of county (see zone offices).

I think this is a more important issue than bootstrapping a reason for a large convention space.

[thelakelander]

Gene Frenette: Pencil in Khan as No. 1 seed for Shipyards project

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/sports/columnists/gene-frenette/2017-03-10/gene-frenette-pencil-khan-no-1-seed-shipyards-project

[Westside Guy]

A few quick things now that I've had a few days to look over the proposal and in response to some of the discussion on here.

1.The jail is not moving anytime soon.  Too expensive for a move that will have very little impact.  Its there, and we will have to come to terms with it being there for a long time.  Come to terms is probably a bad phrase to use because as has been suggested, it isn't a major eye sore and provides extra security.

2. Let's just remediate the entire property.  I know that its expensive but we need to bite this bullet now or it will come back to haunt us regardless of what is built on the shipyards.  I guarantee it.  Unless everyone is ok with people referring to our marquee water front park as "contaminated".  Why limit ourselves onto what can be built there in the future, even if built Khan's plan doesn't have to be the end all be all for the Shipyards.  What if this plan is widely successful and someone comes up in 20 years wanting to expand on the project and the city has to say, "Sorry, we'd love to, but we half assed making sure the soil was clean". No thanks.

3. I love the location of park, but I am not a fan of the execution.  A park at the mouth of Hogans Creek is fantastic, a park that has a weird circular road thing as its defining feature is not.  Also, why does the Veteran's Wall need to be moved?

4. I'm still not sure whether certain elements of this project are designed for Bay Street or Philips Hwy.  Where is the density? I'll put out the disclaimer that I really want to see the next 500 footer go up in downtown Jacksonville, but I realize that this is not the time and the Shipyards is not the place.  That being said, the density of the Brooklyn district is just not going to cut it here.  We should expect more than a set of shops facing Bay Street.

5. Any convention space that is constructed will reduce the need for future convention space.  Simple as that.  I have always felt that the old courthouse site is the best spot for a new convention center, and would tie in nicely with almost any Shipyards project.  But right now there is no plan for a new convention center anywhere, and like other have said on this thread we need to decide whether we want to settle for this convention space plan or go for the home run within the next 10-15 years.

Lastly, props to Mark Lamping for keeping up with the terms like Doro District.  By far the best hire Shad Khan has ever made in the Jaguars organization.  We are fortunate to have him here in Jacksonville.

[RattlerGator]

Where is the density? Where is the density ! ? !

Sweet Jesus.

[Tacachale]

Where indeed is the density?

[thelakelander]

Haha, the Jags could put a mobile home park there and Rattler would be impressed.  I think the old plan was highly unrealistic.  This one isn't anything special but probably jives more with Jax's actual market conditions. I'd like to learn more before giving my full opinion on the proposal. The timeline and amount of public money needed will be very important.

[RattlerGator]

Discusssions about density in most of America and definitely in the South border on the idiotic. And any concern about density on The Shipyards project *is* ridiculous.

http://atlanta.curbed.com/2015/5/7/9963408/maps-highlight-atlantas-density-compared-to-others

Tap into reality, please.

[Tacachale]

Discusssions about density in most of America and definitely in the South border on the idiotic. And any concern about density on The Shipyards project *is* ridiculous.

http://atlanta.curbed.com/2015/5/7/9963408/maps-highlight-atlantas-density-compared-to-others

Tap into reality, please.

Tap into reality indeed. You know there's a difference between density in a downtown setting, and density across a municipality that includes suburban, rural, and undeveloped land, right?

[JBTripper]

There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?

If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.

[Tacachale]

There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?

If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.

Even something the size of the amphitheater is inadequate for larger events that require a lot of floor room. Even something like the Craft and Import Beer Festival at the Arena has to improvise because so much of the facility is seating. Just the needs we have right now won't be met without something bigger.

[Kerry]

Kerry,

none of this proposal meets your exacting standards, so what would you do?

for the record crossing your fingers and waiting for ideal small infill projects to fall out of the sky isn't a strategy

Let Khan build what he proposed but only give him 1/3 of the land to do it on.  The only condition is he builds everything he proposed.

[Dapperdan]

There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?

If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.

Even something the size of the amphitheater is inadequate for larger events that require a lot of floor room. Even something like the Craft and Import Beer Festival has to improvise because so much of the facility is seating. Just the needs we have right now won't be met without something bigger.

I was thinking the same thing early on but now that I have time to think about it, it seems too spread out to be of much use. I think most conventions want everything in one building or area. True adding all the clubs, Flex Field, Stadium, etc., would increase the space but walking from point A to B may be too much a determent.

[thelakelander]

^There's a reason these types of facilities aren't mixed traditionally. I see little need for Jax to go for out-the-box thinking on something where a tried and true simple solution actually works.  Historically, when Jax overcomplicates simple things, especially regarding downtown, the result have not been favorable.

[FlaBoy]

There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?

If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.

Even something the size of the amphitheater is inadequate for larger events that require a lot of floor room. Even something like the Craft and Import Beer Festival has to improvise because so much of the facility is seating. Just the needs we have right now won't be met without something bigger.

I was thinking the same thing early on but now that I have time to think about it, it seems too spread out to be of much use. I think most conventions want everything in one building or area. True adding all the clubs, Flex Field, Stadium, etc., would increase the space but walking from point A to B may be too much a determent.

Eh. I think it is cool. I have walked miles in convention centers in ATL, Orlando, Chicago, or DC from ordinary looking room to ordinary looking room. I think it really can flow pretty well together with a distinct Jax feel too. The additional meeting rooms, amphitheater and space already at the stadium is the one thing that makes the stadium a better location than the old Courthouse. What we are talking about needing is an exhibition space. I still favor the Courthouse spot, but this is the one big factor in favor of the stadium area if Khan is going to build a Four Seasons one way or another.

[RattlerGator]

^There's a reason these types of facilities aren't mixed traditionally. I see little need for Jax to go for out-the-box thinking on something where a tried and true simple solution actually works.  Historically, when Jax overcomplicates simple things, especially regarding downtown, the result have not been favorable.

Ennis, here's the thing: you're certainly correct about the past. However, we've never had a Shad Khan in this town *and* we've never had a Mark Lamping in this town. Now we've got both, joined together as an operating team looking to make money for themselves and provide an upgraded downtown for Jacksonville.

That's a win-win any way you slice it.

Embrace the possibilities, Ennis. Take another look at how creatively sweet that one connected facility is going to be, and how attractive it might be for conventions.