A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[KenFSU]

Okay - after reading through those I can't believe anyone is seriously in favor of the Bay St site.  Tear down the Hermiker Block for a parking garage?  I don't even know where to begin with that.  There isn't a CC consultant alive that would recommend that proposal today.  Those that would have all been fired.

We don't need to tear the Hermiker down. That aside, let's focus on the exhibition hall.  What negatives do you see in placing that plan on the City Hall Annex or larger courthouse site? That box, combined with the Hyatt's existing amount of meeting space fulfills the requirements identified for a convention center in the local market.  COJ also owns the land. Any amount of extra foot traffic on Bay and the riverwalk will benefit the Elbow and Landing.

If it were up to me, I'd place the exhibition hall on the courthouse site (with street level retail facing Bay) and I'd RFP the City Hall Annex building for a mixed use retrofit (market rate apartments and ground floor retail).

Love it, but curious what happens to the Prime Osborne under this scenario?

Is it mothballed in hopes of returning it to transit use one day? Any guess on a time table for that?

Makes a ton of sense, but I'd hate to see the old girl get the wrecking ball if transit doesn't work out.

[thelakelander]

JTA for years has talked about bringing Amtrak back to the old train station as a future phase of the JRTC. Brightline has also mentioned the possibility of expanding to Jax.  Commuter rail is also in JTA's long term plans. If either or all come downtown, using the old terminal for what it was built for makes all the sense in the world.  Given the land around it, you could end up with a great TOD opportunity for an entity like AAF/Brightline as well.  Freeing up the terminal to serve as a future passenger rail hub is another major reason to get the convention center out of there.

[Kerry]

So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.

1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition.  You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other.  It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.

2) It is waterfront land

3) No room for expansion

4) No parking

5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.

6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site

7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.

8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)

9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive

10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs.  You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.

Those are just off the top of my head.

[Tacachale]

Some good thoughts here. But I think those negatives are probably overstated.

So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.

1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition.  You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other.  It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.

True, unless they included the old City Hall location. Then at least that part could be connected to the Hyatt rather easily. We could also close down that stretch of Market Street.

2) It is waterfront land

Ok?

3) No room for expansion

It doesn't seem likely we'll need to expand it, especially if it includes the Courthouse lot, the City Hall lot and the Hyatt.

4) No parking

This is the biggest problem.

5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.

Yes, there are. There are many empty lots within blocks of this site.

6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site

True, but Bay Street is on the list for Skyway expansion. There are also buses. The transit center isn't really connected to much even if it's the hub.

7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.

Says who? The Hyatt handles loading behind the building; something similar could be done with any others.

8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)

I don't understand this one.

9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive

So keep it limited. The Prime Osborn isn't vertical.

10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs.  You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.

I doubt this would be much of a big deal. Either add extra kitchen space, or ferry it over. We do that at UNF to buildings that are much farther apart.

Those are just off the top of my head.

IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.

[FlaBoy]

I've grown to value the City Hall Annex but I'll admit that the amount of bird's taken out for the one stone tossed (and it's potential cost), provides incentive to re-evaluate my initial thoughts.

you could likely fit the same size building on the Old Courthouse property, and not lose the City Hall Annex building at this time.  Connection with the Hyatt could be made via a diagonal skybridge and easily be served by the Hyatt's back-of-house operations area.   

So basically this, which allows the City Hall Annex to be retrofitted with a new use:

Has anyone considered taking out Market St. and using part of the City Hall Annex property up to the tower to expand the space available? If anyone wants to go to the Hyatt from that direction it can be on Liberty St. behind the new Convention Center or Newnan?

[thelakelander]

IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.

The Northbank is full of surface lots and garages that are half empty during times when most major convention center events are held. Parking isn't a significant issue to overcome. The lot sizes are fine too because all you're adding is an exhibition hall and not an entire complex from scratch.

Regarding transit, hotel guests are likely to use the water taxi, which would provide direct service to a waterfront convention center.

Last, the Prime Osborn is a two story center. There is a second floor with meeting rooms. Nevertheless, vertical construction of a medical center or office building is different than building what is essentially a Walmart box with a better facade. The costs to add to something existing will be much cheaper than building everything from scratch....including another vertical hotel.

[Kerry]

So now we are talking about closing streets that provide access to the City's new park/marina and having the river walk go right past the loading bays and dumpsters.  Walkable urbanism didn't even take 24 hours to bite the dust...on a site that should be promoting walkable urbanism above all else.

[Kerry]

Last, the Prime Osborn is a two story center. There is a second floor with meeting rooms. Nevertheless, vertical construction of a medical center or office building is different than building what is essentially a Walmart box with a better facade. The costs to add to something existing will be much cheaper than building everything from scratch....including another vertical hotel.

The exhibit space has to be column free.  It isn't cheap and if you want to put something on top it is even more expensive.

[thelakelander]

I've grown to value the City Hall Annex but I'll admit that the amount of bird's taken out for the one stone tossed (and it's potential cost), provides incentive to re-evaluate my initial thoughts.

you could likely fit the same size building on the Old Courthouse property, and not lose the City Hall Annex building at this time.  Connection with the Hyatt could be made via a diagonal skybridge and easily be served by the Hyatt's back-of-house operations area.   

So basically this, which allows the City Hall Annex to be retrofitted with a new use:

Has anyone considered taking out Market St. and using part of the City Hall Annex property up to the tower to expand the space available? If anyone wants to go to the Hyatt from that direction it can be on Liberty St. behind the new Convention Center or Newnan?

There's a lot of ways to tie things together. For example, you could build over market and directly connect into the east concourse of the Hyatt's second floor.  Other than actually committing to do something, figuring out a design isn't a complex thing.

[thelakelander]

Last, the Prime Osborn is a two story center. There is a second floor with meeting rooms. Nevertheless, vertical construction of a medical center or office building is different than building what is essentially a Walmart box with a better facade. The costs to add to something existing will be much cheaper than building everything from scratch....including another vertical hotel.

The exhibit space has to be column free.  It isn't cheap and if you want to put something on top it is even more expensive.

Whatever you think the cost may be, the proposal below will easily cost two to three times as much. New convention center from scratch (exhibition hall + ballrooms + everything else, etc.), new parking garage (I assume multiple levels) with a new hotel on top (more multiple levels).  Then once you spend the extra millions, you're still in an isolated spot that doesn't generate one ounce of additional business to all the struggling merchants and vacant storefronts standing in the heart of the downtown core.  This is what we've been doing for the last 40 years. Spending too much on public projects that are spaced too far a part to create any type of pedestrian scale synergy in the downtown core to be noticeable.

What if the existing facility was detached from the train station and rotated to be oriented towards Bay St?  It could create a nice street wall along that part of Bay, use existing transportation investments, and 3 sides don't need money spent on pedestrian orientation.  Let's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.

[Kerry]

Some good thoughts here. But I think those negatives are probably overstated.

So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.

1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition.  You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other.  It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.

True, unless they included the old City Hall location. Then at least that part could be connected to the Hyatt rather easily. We could also close down that stretch of Market Street. - Closing streets that lead to the waterfront?

2) It is waterfront land

Ok?  It's highest and best use in not an exhibit hall

3) No room for expansion

It doesn't seem likely we'll need to expand it, especially if it includes the Courthouse lot, the City Hall lot and the Hyatt.  Again, closing streets that lead to the waterfront.  I'm not even sure that is allowed by City Code.

4) No parking

This is the biggest problem.

5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.

Yes, there are. There are many empty lots within blocks of this site.  There are some surface parking lots near by, but they are actively used.  Not insurmountable but not vacant.

6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site

True, but Bay Street is on the list for Skyway expansion. There are also buses. The transit center isn't really connected to much even if it's the hub.  It would be connected to the convention center if it stays where it is.

7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.
Says who? The Hyatt handles loading behind the building; something similar could be done with any others. 
There is no "behind this building" at this location.

8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)

I don't understand this one.  SMG controls the current PO.  They are going to have to control then meeting and exhibit space.  That is how they book conventions.

9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive

So keep it limited. The Prime Osborn isn't vertical.  Lakelander is talking about ground level retail, then I presume so amount of space over that.  The exhibit hall will need at a minimum 35' ceilings, and maybe even 50'.  Those are some large blank walls.

10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs.  You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.

I doubt this would be much of a big deal. Either add extra kitchen space, or ferry it over. We do that at UNF to buildings that are much farther apart.  You move food for 500 people down the sidewalk?

Those are just off the top of my head.

IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.

[Kerry]

The Northbank is full of surface lots and garages that are half empty during times when most major convention center events are held. Parking isn't a significant issue to overcome.

Are you thinking this is just go to stay a Saturday/Sunday venue for local events like cheer competitions and car shows.  The primary usage for convention centers is Mon-TH from 9AM to 4PM.  There will be competition for parking from downtown businesses.

Granted, the current Events calendar isn't overly crowded, but if we are going to spend money shouldn't we end up with something a bit more marketable?

[thelakelander]

I made this map of downtown Jax a few years back. At the time, everything in red was either a vacant lot or surface parking.



Downtown Jax has a lot of obstacles. But the amount of parking spaces available isn't one of them.

[Kerry]

So two white spots jump out at me - the cluster along Laura Street, and the blocks surrounding this site.  If access to available development space is critical then LaVilla wins hands down.

Anyhow - it is the weekend and I have plans,  Peace out everyone and enjoy the weekend.

[thelakelander]

If we need another garage, just for the hell of it, I'd target the JEA site at the SE corner of Ocean & Bay (1/2 block away), the lot at the NE corner of Bay and Newnan (across the street) or the SW corner of Liberty & Forsyth (1/2 block away). Supplement that with JTA's Skyway AV route down Bay, which can directly tie people into massive lots at Everbank Field, the JRTC and Kings Avenue Garage.  You can also beef up the water taxi system to better tie the Southbank and Northbank hotels together with the facility and other destinations along the urban riverfront.