A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[FlaBoy]

He may want too. Until we have the details though, it's difficult to determine the scale and if what he has in mind, has anything to do with resolving the problems that the Prime Osborn suffers from.  If such a plan involves using an indoor practice facility for exhibition space, less than half of the year, I'd say it would not.  If such a plan also calls for the city to toss in more money than simply adding an exhibition hall near the Hyatt, then that's another major factor to consider as well.

For sure. I think the best case scenario, other than Shad Khan building something privately (which is a pipe dream), would be a mixed use building at the old Courthouse site with at least one exhibition hall. I could see another hotel above it or maybe apartments that could be converted to condos...but of course that would make getting shovels in the ground a lot harder.

[RattlerGator]

Ennis, why is it so hard for you to grasp the Jaguars aren't building an indoor practice facility like most anything that has been built for colleges and most pro teams? Your responses always seem to presume this, which is just bizarre to me. And then you make the claim it isn't climate-controlled (false) and it isn't available most of the year (false).

Damn, man. Can we see how this thing develops and keep a more objective mind about it?

[thelakelander]

^Lol, I didn't say anything about something not being climate-controlled.  I also don't care if the practice field is built out of gold.  It won't work as a replacement exhibition hall for the Prime Osborn if it isn't available for conventions for half the year.  With that said, I'm only responding to speculation here, not anything that has actually been proposed.

[Steve]

If Khan wants to build a 500+ room hotel plus 250k SqFt of space with his own money (and he had a crapton of it so nothing is off the table) then cool. Otherwise the best solution is adjacent to the 1,000 room hotel that struggles to stay above water when a football game isn't involved.

[RattlerGator]

Well, I stand corrected Ennis. That was spuwho on the no-climate-controlled thing. *You* were the prisoner of today guy, writing "What good is an isolated box with no hotel rooms, ballrooms, etc. that can't be used for most of the year?"

Luckily, KenFSU put the lie to that assertion: "Looks like the Jags have the same idea, as Bold Events are already actively accepting bookings for trade shows/conventions for both the flex field and amphitheater."

But . . . Ennis is undeterred! "There's tons of indoor practice facilities for college and pro teams already. Are there any decent examples of any doing what's suggested in this thread?"

Wowza. Is that an honest question when everyone knows, and celebrates, the fact this is a unique Jacksonville thing never done anywhere else. Most cities celebrate that kind of thing. But . . . Down with creativity, says Ennis! "I guess I'm a believer in simplicity.  Out-of-the-box thinking to things that should be simple to pull off typically end up costing you more problems and money at the end of the day."

The Skyway, Ennis? For realz? That level of critique, IMHO, isn't applicable when you have a world class team at the helm in Mark Lamping and Shad Khan.

And looky-looky: another prisoner of the moment, tufsu1, chimes in! "Fact is the flex field space isn't a whole lot bigger than what the Prime Osborn already offers, and its about as far from a hotel and the core entertainment area.  That's not an improvement."

False. And we went over this last August when some of the same crowd insisted on downplaying matters just as is being done now. Fortunately, I doubt if a 94,000 square-foot, convention-center-quality and column-free Exhibit Hall will be ignored for most of the year when it is, in fact, available for the majority of the year. It is also likely the *patios* for the US Assure clubs on each side of the stadium (constituting 18,780 square feet each of available space to be creatively utilized) won't be ignored, either. Nor will the additional 100,000 square feet in the covered portions of the US Assure Clubs. None of this, of course, brings into the discussion the other zones of the stadium that might ALSO be creatively utilized practically year-round. Add up the numbers, tufsu1, and you likely have *well* more than 200,000 square feet of unique space (perhaps even 300k) that may be creatively utilized at EverBank / Daily's Place / Exhibit Hall Flex Field in one connected facility. And you're talking about the damn Prime Osborn !?!

But, hey --  for simplicity's sake, y'all stay inside that know-everything box. One way or another, time is going to tell. It's just exceedingly odd to see such a major development, unique to Jacksonville, so ridiculously dismissed.

[tufsu1]

^ let's be real here.  The Jags flex field isn't exactly on par with what Jerry built for his 'boys.  Now that's a facility that could be used for conventions!

[RattlerGator]

Exactly right, tufsu1. And we very clearly don't have the market for that. So *our* guys here had to get VERY creative. And they have. And we should be rightly singing their praises for being INCREDIBLY creative. I swear, had this exact same thing occurred in Tampa or Miami some of y'all would be screaming about how Jacksonville has *no* forward thinkers that could pull off something like this.

That.Is.Bizarre.

Though we won't have what Jerry is doing in Texas, we *do* have something that will be clearly attractive for conventions. Any objective party should be able to see that.

Honestly, it doesn't cost you anything to give these guys their props. It is especially well-deserved on this latest project; all of that public-private partnership (much of it dismissively criticized on this site) has given us something it would have been incredibly hard to generate on our own, via government, or completely through some wealthy investor. I'm throwing some good-natured jabs here (I hope they are received as such) just to call into question what seems like some weird envy that won't allow the projection of professional objectivity -- into a context where some local boosterism is what should be presented, IMHO.

We can't even get the professional objectivity ? ? ?

[RatTownRyan]

State of the franchise. 10:45am. Jaguars.com/live.
Hopefully we fill get some lively conversation on the forum afterwords.

[Kerry]

It is pretty simple - the Jags practice facility is not going to be used as a convention facility.  It takes a lot more than just a big box to host conventions.  I'm going to play nice and not even go into all the reasons why it can't happen, let alone why it shouldn't.

The question Jacksonville really needs to ask itself is, do the taxpayers of Jax want to get in an arms race with the convention industry where there are almost no winners?  Convention centers are almost always sold to the public as a cash-cow, but the vast majority of them turn out to lay economic eggs.  They never meet revenue projections, never attract the conventions that were promised, never bring in the intangible benefits that no one can ever seems to quantify, and always need operating subsidies...and heaven forbid a convention hotel is attached because those operate in the red for their entire life.

'Never' might be a strong word but for every 1 that does, I can show you 20 that didn't.

[Snufflee]

I have to agree with Kerry here...

http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html

Most eye opening paragraph

There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.

[Tacachale]

I have to agree with Kerry here...

http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html

Most eye opening paragraph

There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.

There's more to consider than the national trends.

1: We already have conventions and similar events and it would suck to lose those.

2: Convention centers can have more benefits besides just making money. They can bring people to the area they're in and support businesses and hotels in an area. Even if it doesn't measure up to the lofty promises some make about convention centers, it could certainly be a boost to a place like Downtown Jacksonville.

3: We already have some assets in place that would benefit from a stronger, better designed convention center. The downtown hotels, for instance, like the Hyatt which was built with public incentives; open space with difficult reuse potential like the old Courthouse; and our burgeoning entertainment strips.

4: Jax with our weather and location is better positioned to do well with convention business than many other places. We won't compete with Orlando or Miami, but there's no reason we couldn't get a piece of the Florida pie to the benefit of 1, 2, and 3.

An affordable, well designed, and well located convention center in the heart of Downtown could be a good addition if we keep in mind what we really want out of it, and keep expectations realistic.

[thelakelander]

I have to agree with Kerry here...

http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html

Most eye opening paragraph

There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.

^The main problem I have with the argument is that we're already in the business and we already have a 1,000 room convention center hotel operating in the red. We also already have a half empty retail center next to that hotel (The Landing) and an entertainment district (The Elbow) filled with underutilized plots of land, immediately adjacent to that hotel.  None of these things are going anywhere anytime soon. 

However, they all perform better if the existing events taking place at the Prime Osborn, are relocated to the courthouse site.  All of those people, even those going to cheerleading competitions and Home & Garden shows will have to drive into the heart of the Northbank, park and walk past downtown businesses.  This is something they don't do now. More visibility, street traffic and foot traffic leads to more economic opportunity for the area benefiting from it. 

So IMO, it's less about getting into a new market or getting the next major Comicon and more about clustering our existing Northbank investments in a manner that creates better utilization and foot traffic. In the long run, you're going to save taxpayers a hell of a lot of money by working with what you already have, as opposed to tossing millions at different gimmicks spread-out from Brooklyn to the Stadium District.

[FlaBoy]

I have to agree with Kerry here...

http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html

Most eye opening paragraph

There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.

There's more to consider than the national trends.

1: We already have conventions and similar events and it would suck to lose those.

2: Convention centers can have more benefits besides just making money. They can bring people to the area they're in and support businesses and hotels in an area. Even if it doesn't measure up to the lofty promises some make about convention centers, it could certainly be a boost to a place like Downtown Jacksonville.

3: We already have some assets in place that would benefit from a stronger, better designed convention center. The downtown hotels, for instance, like the Hyatt which was built with public incentives; open space with difficult reuse potential like the old Courthouse; and our burgeoning entertainment strips.

4: Jax with our weather and location is better positioned to do well with convention business than many other places. We won't compete with Orlando or Miami, but there's no reason we couldn't get a piece of the Florida pie to the benefit of 1, 2, and 3.

An affordable, well designed, and well located convention center in the heart of Downtown could be a good addition if we keep in mind what we really want out of it, and keep expectations realistic.

100% agree with all of this and Lake's assessment. Jacksonville does have the benefit of being the closest large Florida city to the rest of the east coast. Those midsized conventions with lots of people driving in from ATL, Charlotte, or Columbia, can add up and be more convenient than heading down to SoFla or Tampa. Orlando is another animal...

[Snufflee]

Well rephrasing it the way the previous 3 posts did, makes mush more sense. Keeping expectations realistic is important, the question i would pose is "What makes San Diego a great convention city"? (Example based on the fact I lived there for 15 years and attended several ComiCons). Answer... The Gas Lamp and the adjacent parks and harbor are literally part of the convention and event scene. Does Jacksonville have enough to make the City part of the event and do "we" have the will to allow The Elbow, landing et al to become major destinations both during events/conventions and on a random Tuesday night.

[Dapperdan]

Looks like the Jaguars want to create their own convention space in metro Park. problem solved..lol