2 shot near N. Laura Street during First Wednesday Art Walk

[Spitfire]

ArtWalk has definitely moved to being where there are lots of teenagers roaming rather than those that are of age. The problem is the neighborhood and gang rivalries that exist. They all end up at ArtWalk or the Jax Fair and sh*t pops off. I bet this is also a big problem for vendors since most 16 year olds I know aren't buying food and drinks.

I was there last night and didn't notice any such thing. Were you?

I'm surprised you didn't. A friend and I walked down Laura towards our cars shortly before the shooting and my friend remarked about how many unsupervised kids were out with school starting back up today.

There were a lot of teenagers there last night. I didn't notice that it was a huge number of teenagers compared to other times when school's out, let alone that they were from "the neighborhood", wherever that is, or that they appeared to be participating in "gang rivalries". The vendors I spoke to considered it was a normal Art Walk night. The complaints I heard from brick and mortar places were about the vagrants, the fall of FOHP, and typical talk about how slow things are Downtown. We headed to Intuition around 8, but from what I saw I wouldn't have predicted a correlation between the crowd and the shootings, any more than any other Art Walk. I doubt anyone else here did either, except in hindsight.

Maybe it was just on that southern end of Laura because there was a crazy amount of kids still hanging about around 9-9:15 on the way to our cars. Given that this was the night before Duval went back to school and not a random night in the middle of a vacation week, it seemed like there were way more kids out than what I would have expected. I, also, wasn't making assumptions that they were all from a particular neighborhood or were directly involved with gang violence (those are the statements of the poster before me).

I do agree with you, though. It didn't feel like that the rest of the night. Just typical, albeit larger than I expected, Artwalk crowd for the beginning of the year.

[remc86007]

Does anybody have any suggestions for dealing with this? Is the sheriff right and we need more police? Would a municipal gun ordinance help? Or do we just need higher levels of employment among youth?

[KenFSU]

Most likely just bad blood between an irresponsible gun owner and whoever he was shooting at.

One of the victims may have also been armed (he was wearing a gun holster when police found him).

[remc86007]

Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.

[remc86007]

Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.

You should talk to Adam. Im sure he could refer you to some decent leasing agents in London.

Let me rephrase the last sentence of my recent post to clear up any confusion:

I'd rather live [in Jacksonville] with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.

Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown? Do you have a 4th amendment objection or some other reason for opposing it? I'm trying to think of solutions, not argue.

[BridgeTroll]

Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.

You should talk to Adam. Im sure he could refer you to some decent leasing agents in London.

Let me rephrase the last sentence of my recent post to clear up any confusion:

I'd rather live [in Jacksonville] with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.

Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown? Do you have a 4th amendment objection or some other reason for opposing it? I'm trying to think of solutions, not argue.

Long long years of debate on this issue, remc. I don't like surveillance by the government obviously.

But one shooting isn't a trend.

I have come to this conclusion also... however... I do encourage private property owners to mount cameras to monitor the immediate areas around their businesses...

[KenFSU]

Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?

To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Captain Zissou]

I feel like we've seen this event dozens of times, but this time it involved guns.  What immediately came to my mind was the festival at the beach that erupted into a huge brawl where a kid's head got stomped on.  As our events get more successful over time, eventually people will show up just to see the other people and they don't actually care about the event.  Those people then get in to mischief because they're essentially there for no good reason and then it gets out of hand and causes problems.

As our events scale up, our security needs to also.

[KenFSU]

I feel like we've seen this event dozens of times, but this time it involved guns.  What immediately came to my mind was the festival at the beach that erupted into a huge brawl where a kid's head got stomped on.  As our events get more successful over time, eventually people will show up just to see the other people and they don't actually care about the event.  Those people then get in to mischief because they're essentially there for no good reason and then it gets out of hand and causes problems.

As our events scale up, our security needs to also.

The viral Christmas Night brawl at the River City Marketplace is what I thought of.

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-12-26/story/movie-theater-brawl-latest-mob-frenzy-go-viral-jacksonville

[ssky]

This is exactly what everybody from the beaches and suburbs thought was going on downtown when I moved to The Carling in 2007. But it wasn't at all. Downtown Jacksonville was amazing back then. Jaguars players were living at The Carling; JSO cops were patrolling day and night...in cars and on bicycles; Art Walk had real art...and kids like last night's shooter and his buddies...they weren't even interested in coming anywhere near the place.

[vicupstate]

Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?

To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Surveillance of a public place is not taking anyone's Liberty.  A cop watching a camera in a remote location is no different than the same cop being there in person and observing what he sees. 

[remc86007]

Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.

You should talk to Adam. Im sure he could refer you to some decent leasing agents in London.

Let me rephrase the last sentence of my recent post to clear up any confusion:

I'd rather live [in Jacksonville] with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.

Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown? Do you have a 4th amendment objection or some other reason for opposing it? I'm trying to think of solutions, not argue.

Long long years of debate on this issue, remc. I don't like surveillance by the government obviously.

But one shooting isn't a trend.

Fair enough.

KenFSU: (sorry I can't figure out how to quote two people)
"To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.""

I fail to see how one's actions on a public street constitute essential liberty, but I understand the sentiment.

[coredumped]

Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?

To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

As someone who is always concerned with civil liberties, the surveillance state, etc, there's no issue here. There is NO expectation of privacy in public. Just as we're 100% allowed to film the police in public, they can also film us. Completely legal/acceptable.

[KenFSU]

Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?

To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

As someone who is always concerned with civil liberties, the surveillance state, etc, there's no issue here. There is NO expectation of privacy in public. Just as we're 100% allowed to film the police in public, they can also film us. Completely legal/acceptable.

I definitely get the other side of the argument.

It's just a matter of what kind of society we want to live in.

A few strategically placed surveillance cameras that police can review in the event that something happens like what happened last night at Art Walk? Sure.

A real-time, continuously monitored, London-style CCTV system, which sweeps and databases license plates, harnesses facial recognition software, and has used hidden microphones to listen in on conversations on the street? No way.

It's gotcha policing, just like red light cameras, and fundamentally changes the human experience for the worst.

[thelakelander]

seems like the views climb when we get to bickering.

Truth is, they actually don't. With that said, there were a lot of teenagers out last night. As other's have mentioned, it's probably related to school being out. Overall, I wouldn't get to worried. Shootings can happen anywhere and the majority of the time, those involved know each other.