Downtown Gamechanger

[ronchamblin]

Thanks RG.  I have appreciated your inciteful comments along the way.  I hope you and most appreciate my occasional attempts at humor, as shown above.  The extent of my intrusion into drugs only goes so far as BC powder and aspirin.  Hell ... I've never been brave enough to smoke cigarettes ... boring I know.  A beer some nights .... Certainly.

But ..... Yes ..... I hope too, that my attempts to be serious about issues of interest are somewhat productive, and enjoyed by most.  I don't get excited with, or have the time for, the light chit chat, as some do.  We have a somewhat serious condition in the core, and I like to address it with some reasonably contemplated ideas.  I do enjoy however, any serious attempts to criticize what I've written. 

[ronchamblin]

Coffee again, this Saturday morning.  Been thinking again.  Forgive me, for I know not what I think. 

The FBC?  I've occasionally wondered about the impact of the church, as it occupies, including parking lots, perhaps 13 city blocks ... maybe more?  The core proper might be assumed to occupy about 115 city blocks.  If the church actually occupies the 13, then if one considers that the adjacent blocks are impacted too, the total impact might be 25 or so.  If the impact is thought to extend to two blocks outward, the total block impact would be more or course.

Without researching, I will suggest, including the smaller churches, a possible total church core presence of about 20 blocks ... and to 35 or so if one extended impacts to adjacent blocks.  One can perceive, depending on adjacent block considerations, a possible church core impact of at least 25% of the core blocks.   

So ... why even talk about the impact?  What if these blocks were simply parks?  Parks convey beauty and nature ... spaces that can be enjoyed by "all" citizens, every day of the week, all day, and into the night ... even by atheists like myself ... or people who do believe ... but do so quietly ... without church attendance. 

But so what about this rather ineffective use of core city blocks?  Think of the jails?  Just as some citizens do not wish to enjoy church, some do not wish to enjoy the jail.  Whereas church attendance is voluntary, jail attendance is mandatory ... especially if one is poor, and especially so if one is of a minority "and" poor ... and even more so, if one engages incompetent and prejudiced employees of the justice system ... judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys.   

But ... who is to say that the core must be limited to the 115 or so blocks, and cannot evolve to more blocks, thereby reducing the impact of existing church, jail, or sheriff compound presence?  Any city core can grow outward, block by block.  We see now, coming from the southwest, from Five Points, through La villa etc, encroaching vitality.  In a few years,  as the core evolves larger, a future visitor might not perceive the old boundaries.

The FBC and the jail are similar in that they do not contribute, during the day and the night ... every day of the week ... to a sidewalk vibrancy; that is, they do not entice or encourage sidewalk people, shops, social excitement ...  critical components necessary for a city to be considered alive and well.  In this respect, these two structures, along with the sheriff's compound, provide a rather mundane architectural presence in the core, and represent an overall negative to core infrastructure.   

Currently, there is little urgency to engage the issue of poor use of core blocks as occupied by huge compounds such as the FBC, the Jail, or the adjacent Sheriff's compound, as we've not even utilized the existing "available" core blocks.  We look to the future.  But ... when will the negative impact of these entities in the core become somewhat apparent, even to the most comfortably complacent ... those less inclined to think about these things because of that very comfort, a comfort perhaps provided by the status quo? 

Do we need a jail right in the core ... practically on the river?  Do we need a sheriff's compound in the same area?  And would the FBC better serve its flock by relocating outward, to a nice wooded area?  All for future consideration.

[thelakelander]

To avoid paying for downtown parking, for the last month I've been parking near FSCJ, north of State Street and walking 1/2 mile to my office at 121 W. Forsyth Street. When it rains, I use the Skyway. Other than that, I use Laura Street.  I've also been to several cities in the last month or two (ex. Houston, Baltimore, Savannah, Mexico City, etc.), where I've started to pay attention to enjoyment or despair of 1/2 mile distances from a pedestrian's standpoint. It's been an interesting experience and has given me a different persective of Laura Street and FBC. First, there's basically three main property owners between Orange Street and Hemming and they are all public or religious use.

The first large scale property owner is the campus of FSCJ. It should be much more of an area asset and foot traffic generator on that end of downtown. The campus is enclosed with a tall fence and what should be a campus gateway, mixed-use infill project or educational related activity center (the corner of Laura and State) is a huge parking lot. Now that the school is interested in downtown housing, addressing this particular corner with some infill would have a bigger immediate impact than renovating buildings around the Northbank, IMO.

Second, State & Union aren't hard to cross, assuming you have a reason to be on foot in that area. Other than Savannah, the streets in the other large cities were typically much wider with a lot more traffic (although they were easy to cross on foot too). There's also a lot more pedestrian traffic on that end than I've ever noticed when driving. Foot traffic is also pretty diverse in terms of age, race and economics. Downtown would feel quite different if their foot traffic were happening in the core instead of the edge.

The next major property owner is JTA. Most of the foot traffic in the area is definitely due to the Rosa Parks station. Between State & Union, property on both sides of Laura have been vacant for a while, despite some of the highest pedestrian and vehicular counts in the city being on those streets. JTA should take advantage of this by dusting off their old plans for selling their remaining vacant land for private development. While mixed-use would be great, I don't know if it is practical in that specific location, unless FSCJ got involved in some manner. Nevertheless, even something as simple as a single level strip mall, like what fronts Oak and Margaret Streets near Publix in Riverside, would be a major improvement at street level.

Once you get past Union Street, and into the campus of FBC, the environment changes to an urban fill. Foot traffic goes down but there are buildings and shade trees on the sidewalks, as opposed to surface parking lots. Unfortunately, FBC's campus is totally underutilized and the impact that it could have on the surrounding pedestrian environment is limited by the pedestrian scale hostile design of most of its buildings. For example, the Children's Building and Welcome Center is a well designed and open structure. Not surprisingly, this is where I encounter an uptick in pedestrian traffic during the week.


Children's Building and Welcome Center

Outside of that, the scene is dominated by barren walls and parking garages, despite the presence of some activities that should be better exposed. The church's cafeteria is one example of this. It fronts an entire block of Laura between Beaver and Ashley Streets. Outside of them sticking a sandwich board out on the sidewalk, you'd never know a large restaurant was there because the dining area is all glass block. A move as simple as replacing the glassblock with transparent windows and signage would totally change the vibe of a full block in the heart of the church's campus.


FBC cafeteria from Laura Street sidewalk.


At night, you can barely tell there's a dining room behind those glass block windows. During the day, it's impossible.


Inside, you basically have something like a Morrison's or Piccadilly, that literally two blocks north of Hemming Park.

In short, I believe FBC and it's stretch of Laura can be improved very easy to become a better downtown asset. Also, if the church's membership is shrinking and it does not need all of the square footage it now occupies, it would seem that conversion of some of these properties to FSCJ or another entity for educational/cultural/performing arts use, may make some sense from an adaptive reuse perspective. Nevertheless, it's a stretch to compare the jail to FBC.

Sidenote, our jail on the river isn't as unique as some might think. For centuries our cities turned their backs on their urban waterfronts, using them for heavy industry. When the jail was built, East Bay was an industrial zone. You'll find similar waterfront structures in cities like Miami, Fort Lauderdale and Houston.


Downtown Houston's jail

The last major land owners are the JEA and COJ.  This stretch of Laura, between Ashley and Duval is the worst. All of the buildings they use were major retail anchors for most of the 20th century. Everyday, I find myself trying to image what this desolate stretch of Laura would have felt like when Ivey's, May-Cohen's and Purcell's were around. Instead of storefront displays, a pedestrian is greeted with various offices for JEA and COJ personnel. It also appears that the Purcell's retail spot has been vacant since the Blue Boys sandwich shop closed years ago. The only hope I can imagine for this stretch is JEA moving out and those building being taken over by the private sector.

[ronchamblin]

Interesting Lake.  I had no idea that a restaurant was in the FBC structure. 

Most of what you discuss is related to the "infrastructure" I've been mentioning.  Improving it is the key.  Otherwise, not much happens.  My tongue in cheek association of the FBC with the jail .... ?  Well, my main point was that they both don't do what my "ideal" of a city block should do ... which is to provide as much as possible ... an opportunity for the growth of an interesting sidewalk life ... shops etc.  Basically, the growth of core vibrancy and infill will not occur until some of those basic changes you mentioned are configured ... and other changes of course.

Got to ready for opening.

[ronchamblin]

Just read this morning's Tango Uniform.  The BBC ... doing a documentary about our local justice system workers having difficulty achieving  "justice", but success in achieving "convictions" and heavy sentencing?  Is the BBC assuming that some of our local officials and professionals (prosecutors, judges, police officers, probation officers, defense attorneys ... and other bureaucrats), held dumb by their sense of power and comfort, can be persuaded to actually think?  Which of the assorted gods before us do we wish to thank?

[landfall]

What about the prospect of a downtown outlet mall? Whilst the traditional malls are dying outlet malls are very much on the rise and moving further into downtown areas. New Orleans opened an outlet mall downtown in 2014, there is one currently being constructed in Philadelphia and Cleveland is also considering one. Arguably Jacksonville is undersized in this area with the nearest outlet mall 40 miles south in St. Aug.

It would bring significant retail back to the urban core and also in addition to shopping create new leisure opportunities for new bar and restaurant openings and encourage people from the suburbs to return to spend time DT and create jobs.

I think the shipyards would be a perfect location. Khan's project is dead.

[ronchamblin]

I reviewed this thread the other day.  What has happened regarding core movement to true vibrancy during recent months?  Looks like we've voted out ... ousted ... a chunk of justice system leadership bent on fighting crime so obsessively and carelessly that there was no room for justice and fairness.  Good news, as too much of this kind of abusive nonsense can push a local culture to further levels of poverty ... thus perpetuating more cycles of crime. 

I suspect that the stabilized cycles of crime are enjoyed or at least comfortably tolerated by some, as they feed upon it as vultures upon the weak or dying animal.  This is not to say that the vultures contrive the abusive scenario, but by behavior, they accept and perpetuate it.  Our new leadership in the state's attorney's office offers hope for a more progressive and balanced view to objectives and procedures.  A beginning.

Overall, I gained from the thread comments, having improved my understanding of local history via the input from SD and others.  I also enjoyed the exercise of attempting to express my impatience with the status quo.  I suspect that some others are at least somewhat impatient with the lack of progress to core vibrancy.

But ... as always, there are occasional glimmers of hope, as rumours come and go, glancing upon the minds of those anxious for true core revitalization.  We've watched for decades as the core sat low in water, without a plane for speed to destination ... a plane that can be achieved only with sufficient power in the form of a larger motor; that is, of leadership and/or financial clout.

Occasionally, I find myself wondering what effect our local culture might exert upon our attempts to proceed to vibrancy.  If we have agreed that we have indeed failed, even after decades, to bring our core to a respectable level of infill; that is, to a respectable population of residents and workers, businesses ... and of course shoppers and visitors, then this perception of failure should provide a little clarity and focus to most minds.

A failure to solve a problem in any system is often only a consequence of failing to perceive the dynamics working it.  Although we might perceive some core/city dynamics simply because they are obvious, what of those hidden ... perhaps simmering in our local culture?  Are there any cultural attributes, hidden, that could actually be obstructing progress to true vibrancy and infill? 

Whatever the culture, the subtle but persistent qualities and pressures within it influences all .... 365 days per year ... shapes all.  I suspect that hidden cultural aspects can affect the journey to a complete and vibrant city core.

When I think of culture (avoiding the classic definition), I think of ideas related to the arts ... the economy ... inequality ....  the religions, churches, and their influences ... the educational system ... the justice system and all its appendages of jails, probation etc .... the political establishment ... the real movers and shakers ... the local media ... the general mood of most citizens ...  the continued momentum of suburban expansion outward ...etc. 

Admitting that some of the above attributes might lie outside of the definition of what is "culture", one might wonder how, and to what extent, some can affect progress to true revitalization of the city core.  If it is true that we have not made reasonable progress toward revitalization by focusing on the clearly obvious, then we might seek out and attempt focus upon hidden factors, which might ultimately be found obstructing the journey. 

The hidden effects of culture is similar to a large body of water, which, as a consequence of its size, prevents an observer from knowing whether it is a river or a lake.  The observer, desiring to cross to a large tower on the distant shore, and unaware of the current, gradually drifts downstream ... stagnating on the journey as its small motor cannot gain against the current. The hidden current is like the hidden cultural attributes ... both preventing movement to goal.

But, what of the idea of power?  When a larger motor is installed in the boat .. overcoming the effects of the not obvious current ...  the boat proceeds to the tower.  If we suspect that hidden cultural attributes subtly obstruct progress to revitalization, knowledge of them is less necessary if enough power is applied in the form of money, good sense, and determination.

Concerning power (a larger motor), especially in the form of money ... what of this fellow Khan?  He certainly has the resources to approximate the effect of the larger motor in the boat analogy.  Apply enough power ... money ... with good sense, and success to goal can be achieved.

Until either the current miraculously subsides (until the obstructing cultural attributes subside) .. via prayer perhaps ... or until a larger motor is installed, there can be little progress to the tower (a revitalized core). 
 
Any discussion of the subtle cultural attributes becomes less necessary as the probability of increased power (larger motors), in the form of money, is forthcoming.     

One might suggest that once one or two large projects are completed, any hidden and negative cultural attributes formerly acting to obstruct progress, will have less effect on the movement to true vibrancy and infill.


To work.

[exnewsman]

The last major land owners are the JEA and COJ.  This stretch of Laura, between Ashley and Duval is the worst. All of the buildings they use were major retail anchors for most of the 20th century. Everyday, I find myself trying to image what this desolate stretch of Laura would have felt like when Ivey's, May-Cohen's and Purcell's were around. Instead of storefront displays, a pedestrian is greeted with various offices for JEA and COJ personnel. It also appears that the Purcell's retail spot has been vacant since the Blue Boys sandwich shop closed years ago. The only hope I can imagine for this stretch is JEA moving out and those building being taken over by the private sector.

One side note to your Blue Boys Sandwich Shop comment. All these many years later, they still have the downtown location listed on their website. 421 Laura Street.

[remc86007]

What about the prospect of a downtown outlet mall? Whilst the traditional malls are dying outlet malls are very much on the rise and moving further into downtown areas. New Orleans opened an outlet mall downtown in 2014, there is one currently being constructed in Philadelphia and Cleveland is also considering one. Arguably Jacksonville is undersized in this area with the nearest outlet mall 40 miles south in St. Aug.

It would bring significant retail back to the urban core and also in addition to shopping create new leisure opportunities for new bar and restaurant openings and encourage people from the suburbs to return to spend time DT and create jobs.

I think the shipyards would be a perfect location. Khan's project is dead.

While I agree that an outlet mall downtown would be great, I don't think the shipyards area is appropriate. I think the best use for that stretch of land is a combination of office space, hotels, a convention center, and a large urban park and I think Khan's project is going to happen, just not as originally planned. I don't want to see any more parking lots built along the water. Perhaps a better place for an outlet mall (to serve downtown, Riverside, Springfield, and San Marco) would be somewhere immediately southwest of the new Duval Count courthouse. I don't know if enough property could be cobbled together there for a mall, but it would be great if it could tie in with the new JEA transit hub (or whatever it's called).

[brucef58]

Why would an outlets mall work; the Landing started going down hill within five years of when Rouse originally built it and all the major department stores left before that.  We need housing in Downtown to support retail!

[remc86007]

Perhaps the best hope for bringing residential is what was suggested on the first page of this thread; get a real university campus to build downtown.

I know it would never happen, but if UF law school were in downtown Jacksonville I would be a Gator instead of a Seminole. Gainesville is a truly awful location for a prestigious law school as far as work experience and networking goes, especially compared to Tallahassee or Jacksonville.

[RattlerGator]

[1]

The legal profession is in such a state of flux -- yes, it would be great if UF would open a downtown Jax annex. I don't see that ever happening.

If UNF woke up, they could and should have a major presence downtown. In fact, I suspect major changes are coming to our public higher education system. Just think if UNF was the public higher education umbrella for this area; if FSCJ was a sub-unit of UNF, for instance. Wouldn't that change the perspective of many in town regarding the viability of a much bigger downtown footprint for them?

Why aren't we hearing anything about a UNF-FSCJ partnership with respect to downtown?

http://www.cityoforlando.net/mayor/2016/02/why-were-supporting-the-ucfvalencia-downtown-campus/

We need to be demanding much more from UNF vis-à-vis a serious downtown presence.

[2]

About FSCJ, Ennis wrote:

The campus is enclosed with a tall fence and what should be a campus gateway, mixed-use infill project or educational related activity center (the corner of Laura and State) is a huge parking lot. Now that the school is interested in downtown housing, addressing this particular corner with some infill would have a bigger immediate impact than renovating buildings around the Northbank, IMO.[/b]

Agreed.

[ronchamblin]

Lake's reference to JEA, COJ, and FSCJ is interesting.   The Laura St. run of JEA, COJ, and FSCJ ownership ... along with the FBC ownership ... lowers the probability of achieving vibrancy in the area, as these entities present an unfriendly sidewalk environment ... a condition obstructing natural growth simply because they basically repel people.  The sidewalks might as well be fronted by concrete walls ... which is, in most of the area, the actual case. 

Of course JEA and COJ offices must exist somewhere in the core.  So, what might be a solution?  Perhaps, at least regarding the JEA building, and even, with a stretch of the imagination, certain parts of city hall, creative build outs to accommodate sidewalk access retail is an option.  The FBC building?   

But even if these build outs existed, the current lack of a residential population, along with the vacancies in core buildings, does not provide enough customers to support many types of retail.  We continue to see experiments in retail etc, abandoned after only a few months of experiencing reality ... ; especially the spaces along Adams, Laura, and Monroe. 

The times have changed from decades ago, when the core was the only source for retail purchases.  The options for acquisition of retail goods now include the Internet and the suburbs.  Increased core residential, along with anything else establishing a reasonably constant population in the core, is necessary before any reasonable retail can survive in the core. 

Some possible bright lights on the horizon ... the upcoming FSCJ facility on Adams, between Main and Laura, and the possibility of Kahn doing something with the Barnett, and Atkins with adjacent buildings.  As some have suggested, isn't it about time for a UNF presence in the core? 

More affordable residential ... lofts etc ...  along with initiatives from universities (injections of people), will I suspect provide a momentum that will finally push the core closer to a threshold.  Post threshold conditions will provide an energy level permeating all aspects of the core ...  encouraging and allowing the final push to true core revitalization simply because the energy will convey a high probability of success to hundreds of average investors, creators, and entrepreneurs ... individuals of the kind who've recently found confidence only in the mini-cores such as Five Points, Park/King -- all "Post Threshold" areas. 

But ... what of the idea of a threshold?  Is it a valid concept?  If so, what are the characteristics of a pre-threshold era?  What are those of the post-threshold?  The differences are profound ... and worth, in my opinion, discussing.  Will continue.  To work.

[vicupstate]

^^ What is the status of your residential building project? It will take more of that type of project before the bigger residential projects happen, IMO. 

[ronchamblin]

Tnx for asking vicup.  I shall ramble for a bit this morning during espresso.  I suspect this kind of rambling ... other then revealing the fact that I am a fucking idiot ... might convey a somewhat helpful thought process to anyone else contemplating doing a project in the core.   

We are "finally" ramping up to continue with the project.  I've been spending money and time on flat roofs, and other improvements on the various buildings accumulated for the bookstore operation.  Basically, I have the resources to do only a certain number of things simultaneously.  So the 225 Laura building has had to wait for a spell. 

I've been cautiously paying down my debt ... reducing my real estate monthly payment demand by ½ over the last three years.  As you might know, some or most banks, although seemingly our friends at times ... smiling all the while ... can become like vultures and maneuver to take everything you've worked hard for ...especially the large banks like Bank of America.  Forgive me sir or madame, but I don't trust any of these fucking institutions, as they are excessively infected with the insanity encouraged by our American way of gaining money and riches at any cost to any and all of the hard working average Joe's, Vic's, Rachel's, or Ron's ... when there is the slightest opportunity to do so ... even if it borders on outright theft.  When I pay off my single, very small balance to Bank of America, I shall close all accounts with this bank, and never enter their doors again.  These bastards will put you down, and take what you have, at the slightest opportunity to do so.

One must acknowledge however, that there are sensible, fair, concerned individuals working in and leading certain banks ... working to achieve their objectives to gain profits and wealth on reasonable levels.  I will seek out these types to engage a loan.  In over 40 years of business I've never failed to make a single payment on any loan.  I smile occasionally when a potential lender seems worried that I might not be a good risk.   

In any case ...  I've been monitoring the curve on sales since about 1995.  The expected decline has not occurred.  I've always wondered about a rising impact of the ebook and the competition online via the cancerous Amazon.  The sales curve has traveled through very slow rises and declines ... overall stabilizing on a flat curve over the years since the onset of the Internet ... quite tolerable in my view.  My employee count has risen to almost 30, and will increase by several more when we open the 225 operation.  I still work 6 to 7 days per week, and never take a vacation.  In case anyone might wonder, this kind of work schedule is almost necessary if you want to survive in a world infected by vulturous and predatory banks operating in our often insane capitalist system.

I recently talked with the architect on the 225 building, who has been waiting for info to continue the drawings.  He is about 60% finished.  We are back on track now to continue exploratory demo so as to gain info for him.

And vicupstate, you might remember when the grant funds ... around $37K ... was tabled a few months ago until I decided whether I would operate the lower floor restaurant myself or lease it out.  Having recently made the decision to "do it" myself ... hiring chef and crew ... I informed the waiting members of the board of my decision.  We are to meet again within days to discover or determine if there is any reason to hold up final release of the grant funds to me.  I suspect the money was tabled because some individuals present suspected that my indecision was related to a potential project failure.  But of course, the board or grant rules .. rule.       

Of course, I cannot get far on the project with $37K, so I'm also preparing for a construction loan with some local banks.  I will need ... I don't know ... maybe only $500K ... maybe $700K.  Given the plans for the four two-bedroom apartments and the lower floor operation, the income will easily pay for the loan.  I already have, without advertising, several people wanting to rent the apartments.  Most look forward to being able to look down upon the Hemming Park show ...  all kinds of persons, creatures,  and activities.  I paid off the building by the way.  In 2012, I paid $295K for it.

But ... overall, I am excited to get on with the project.  It will be fun.  And the city core will gain by it.  We are going to do a bang up job on the front ...attempting to return it so as to look like it might have looked many years ago.

I forgot to talk about the idea of the "threshold".  Later.

Onward to work.