Mayor Curry & Shad Khan in talks about Metro Park Development

[thelakelander]

You make a good point about everything West of The Landing being a dead zone and the East side being better for the first few blocks. However, once you pass Liberty Street you have a substantial walk before you get to Intuition. After Intuition it is another 1/4 mile plus to the Metropolitan Park property line.  Unless there is something really positive breaking up those distances, it is going to be a problematic to create pedestrian linkage and synergy.       

The rule of thumb is that 1/4 mile radius is the max distance someone will walk to reach a destination.

The reality is that it will be problematic to create pedestrian scale synergy. Whatever happens around the stadium will simply end up being another node of activity that's a mile east of the Northbank core. Converting the Shipyards into a park (an idea that certainly has its merits) isn't going to change that.

[thelakelander]

^Downtown housing is pretty much at capacity. The LaVilla developments being built are affordable housing, so that pretty much makes the expense of retrofitting an old building like the Barnett or Ambassador a deal killer. Then with the particular site selected, it's not bad at all. On the surface, the area may seem isolated, but it's a quick walk over a pretty short bridge to everything in Brooklyn. It's also a stone's throw from two Skyway stations. So residents will have quick free public transit access to both the Northbank and Southbank. Last, when these projects are completed, along with JAXIS, there will be activity in the immediate vicinity that does not exist today.

[ProjectMaximus]

I guess it's about time for me to finally finish up that Baltimore article ;-)

Yeah I think so!

It's also a stone's throw from two Skyway stations. So residents will have quick free public transit access to both the Northbank and Southbank.

TOD?! It just took 3 decades...maybe we're on a 30-year delay and TOD is gonna start springing up everywhere.

[thelakelander]

^Haha, the Skyway is an underutilized economic development tool. It's one of the primary reasons Jax was able to land the Omni and attract Rouse to invest in the Landing back in the 1980s.

[FlaBoy]

If there was a convention center and hotel, it would seal the deal that if a Skyway extension did occur, it would go out to the stadium.

I do think the Jail needs to be moved eventually with this being one of several reasons. However, there are some cool and creative ways to energize a beautiful new park where the shipyards are that will cost a fraction of the price that the environmental cleanup will take. Also, I want there to be greenspace on the river that is preserved. That part makes a lot of sense to me.

[thelakelander]

From a market perspective, the worry of subsidizing another decent sized hotel in downtown is that it would cannibalize the Hyatt. Taxpayers "invested" about $20 million in that one. It also doesn't seal the deal for a Skyway expansion, unless the Jags and COJ have some extra pennies to help pay for its construction. If that were the case, it would have been extended to EverBank Field decades ago.

If it's possible to save millions on cleanup by converting portions of the Shipyards into greenspace, perhaps that's the way to go with that property. Downtown certainly isn't lacking in its amount of underutilized property. So if millions can be saved by making it a park, that could free up millions for a large amount of other unfunded needs.

With that said, we're lying to ourselves if we think a long linear park bordered by a jail and coffee house is going to result in any amount of consistent pedestrian traffic along East Bay between the Northbank core and Metropolitan Park. The distance is too great, the connectivity is too limited, the climate is too tropical and the area's density is too low. It could be very nice but from a walkability perspective, it would be more like the green spaces on Chattanooga's Northshore or Detroit's Belle Isle as opposed to Millennium Park in Chicago. The majority of people will drive to get there and they'll drive to get to their next destination when it's time to leave the space.

[KenFSU]

I'm meeting-free for the next hour, so humor me while I speculate based on what we currently know.

First of all, we know that Curry has something major in mind for downtown. This shouldn't come as a surprise. During his first year in office, he was very candid in his admission that there would be no money for downtown until his pension plan was passed. Once his plan was approved, he said, he would turn his attention to downtown. With the bill passed, he seems laser-focused on cementing a legacy via downtown transformation. And, for a guy who usually speaks in measured terms, he's talking big. "We are going to transform downtown," Curry told the Times-Union staff two weeks ago. "It's coming ... This is not going to be small-time stuff over the next few years. Everything is on the table — the Shipyards, Berkman, Metropolitan Park, the old city hall, the old courthouse, a convention center, a hotel district. By [the end of 2018], you will have seen real development in and around that whole area from the Shipyards and Met Park to Berkman without question. It won't be a concept and conversation. It will be work done," Curry said.

Curry was very clear that the developments he is discussing involve private dollars aided by logistical support from the city, which obviously suggests a continued partnership with Shad Khan and the Jaguars.

A few thoughts/predictions/questions:

1) Curry told the Times-Union that major development(s) will be announced beginning early next year. This certainly points to the Jaguars State of the Franchise presentation in January as the most likely landing spot for the first major announcement. At the very least, I'd look for Curry and Khan to announce details of a Metro Park redevelopment. Wouldn't be surprised to hear more Shipyards news either, as a Met Park development may necessitate a land swap with that property.

2) I'm not sold, however, that Metro Park will be used for a new convention center, at least not in the traditional sense of the term. First, without going quite vertical, I don't see how a modern convention center of reasonable size fits onto the Met Park property, let alone a convention center/hotel. Secondly, the bed taxes only spread so thin, and I don't see us being in a position to put down $200 million+ for a competitive center. Third, the idea of cramming a 500,000+ sf convention center into Met Park seems to contradict Khan's desired use for the property. "Mr. Khan has publicly expressed his interest in developing the Met Park site," said Khan's spokesman Jim Woodcock. "He and the Jaguars have also repeatedly stated their commitment to support the continued revitalization of downtown Jacksonville, with a focal point being a seamless connection between EverBank Field and the St. Johns River." Not sure that erecting a fortress like convention center on the site achieves that goal of connecting Everbank to the St. Johns River.

3) My best guess is that Metro Park, based on past statements by Khan, will be less hotel/convention center, and more luxury hotel/conference center. Maybe 100,000 sf of meeting space. Perhaps some retail/restaurants on the ground level. And I'd put money on a rooftop restaurant as well. In fact, even though the original Shipyards plan will likely never come to full fruition, you get the idea that certain aspects may be piecemealed and modified as plans adjust. Wouldn't be at all surprised if the project looks a lot like the hotel previously proposed in the original Shipyards presentation:



I totally see the thought process behind the hotel from the Jaguars perspective -- it fits their strategy of luring more festivals to town and turning Jaguars home games into weekend-long events featuring major Saturday night performances at the amphitheater, and having their own hotel in the stadium district allows them to control that experience even more -- but as Ennis mentioned above, I've always been worried about the cannibalization effect. Further, with Phase I of the District possibly featuring its own 200-room hotel, I question whether the market can support up to 550 more rooms per night (assuming Khan's original plans for a 350-room hotel).

4) As part of that seamless connection between Everbank Field and the St. Johns River that the Jaguars desire, I'd also look for the announcement of a pedestrian bridge linking Daily's Place with the Metro Park development, over the highway. This overpass has been mentioned as a "Phase II" addition to Daily's Place since the amphitheater was first announced, which leads me to believe that Met Park discussions have been going on for quite some time now.



In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see the overpass extend directly into a Riverwalk, as we saw in some of the original Shipyards renderings:



5) I'd count on Khan's Metro Park development to also feature quite a bit of riverfront greenspace as well. Curry pretty much implied as much, saying "There will be green space, significant green space, built into everything we do down there." It makes sense. I don't know if I'm crazy about the idea of surrendering the entire Shipyards in a landswap, so it would be great to maintain some existing park acreage at the Met site. I also think we'll see at least one more restaurant/entertainment piece on the Met Park property as well.

6) I slightly fallen in love with the idea of a signature riverfront park at the Shipyards, but like I stated above, I don't think it would be prudent to sacrifice the entire Shipyards property in a Metro Park landswap, nor do I think it would be necessary if we get creative with greenspace at Met Park and in other riverfront development. In fact, I still hope the city petitions for obsolescence first with Met Park before being bound to an acre-for-acre landswap because, let's face it, Met Park hasn't been relevant for a long time and really never used the full 27 acres for public parkspace. In a perfect world, I'd love to see the left half of the Shipyards (yellow) capped for parkspace, and the right half (red) fully remediated for unrestricted development.



Based on comments in the T-U article, we can speculate that the left half of the Shipyards, at the least, may be being looked at for use as parkspace (Boyer noted that she pictured condo residents overlooking the adjacent park). From what I remember of the environmental report, the left half of the site is slightly more polluted as well. You would hope that shoring up the capping to the left side for parkland and fully remediating the right side probably gets us close to, and hopefuly even slightly under, a $20 million price tag for remediation. It'll be expensive either way, but we've got $13 million in the coffers already, and it needs to have been done years ago. If it's not an acre-for-acre swap with Metro Park, there could even be some opportunity to maintain some riverfront greenspace on the right side as well while still developing the bulk of the land.

7) Assuming this happens, and the right side of the property is opened up for development, mixed use would obviously be ideal.

8 ) Totally agree with those who say that an empty, passive park isn't necessarily the key to enhancing connectivity between downtown proper and the stadium district. I do, however, think that it's more connective to have the park bridging downtown and the stadium district than it is to have the park on the outskirts where it is now. I also think the park will be designed to encourage regular use. Even though the stadium complex is being enhanced with music festivals in mind, I think we'll still see a park capable of handling concerts, events, holiday celebrations, etc. And, you can bet your bottom dollar that one of the primary features of the public park will be the USS Adams. Unless something has changed in the last couple of weeks, the USS Adams will be here in Jacksonville by end of this year, or early next year. Wouldn't be surprised at all to hear an announcement formally made early next year that it's finding a permanent home at the Shipyards, maybe in that same spot that was considered a few years ago prior to Khan's Shipyards plans:



9) As previously mentioned by another poster, I would hope for a park that is architecturally interesting and generous with shade. Louisville's Waterfront Park was mentioned as a possible inspiration for a Shipyards park. Looks a little dull from the aerials, but it's hard to know without spending time there personally. I also think that without interaction with the river, you aren't capitalizing on the potential of the space. Kayak/paddleboard/dragonboat rentals seem like a no-brainer (especially with a secondary spot across the river at the District).

10) Purely speculation, but I have a funny feeling that Curry also has something in the works with Shad Khan regarding Berkman II. If you'll recall, Khan's original proposal called for the removal of Berkman II and replaced it with the "live" portion of his Shipyards vision, featuring residential and recreational spaces, a restaurant, and a marina. Again, call me optimistic, but I could see an arrangement where the city pays for demolition in return for Iguana redeveloping the site. I'm sure there would be complaints about giving Khan the keys to the kingdom, but this might be one of the concessions that Curry was talking about when he said, "You can't please everybody. If you try to please everybody, you are not going to get things done, and maybe that's been part of the issue downtown in the past." This might be a stretch, but Curry pretty much promised significant progress on the Berkman within the next two years. And you've got to think that, assuming the other pieces fall into place (Coastline beautification, Shipyards remediation), doing something with Berkman II suddenly seems like a much more valuable proposition. Plus, the luxury condo market is heating back up (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/11/15/residential-experts-right-time-for-new-condo.html)

11) Curry mentioned that everything was on the table, including bringing down the old Courthouse and the City Hall Annex. Long term, to me, this seems like a much more logical place to either build a new convention center, or expand the Hyatt into a larger convention space, as Ennis suggested a few years ago. With that adjacent parking lot about to get dynamited into oblivion, seems like it would be a much better, more central waterfront location for a convention center than Metro Park.

12) Question for those more knowledgeable about water taxis than I am. We know that Skyway expansion to the stadium, District, and residential neighborhoods is likely very far out, and very expensive. Curious if you guys think that water taxis, in the absence of Skyway coverage, are a viable form of people circulation. For example, we have four water taxis in service right now, with only five stops total (the Landing, Met Park, Wyndham, Doubletree, and Friendship Fountain).



Let's say we doubled or tripled the fleet, reduced the fare, and expanded the loop to include Five Points*, Brooklyn*, Baptist*, Coastline Drive, the Shipyards/arena/baseball grounds*, the District, and San Marco, is this an effective, cost-efficient (relative Skyway expansion) way to move people? I honestly don't know, but on the surface, it feels like it might make sense. Can't be that much more expensive than buses, can it?

*Plans are already under way to add these stops.

Anyway, thanks for humoring me. Super intrigued to see how this all plays out.

Like I said, I'm optimistic by nature, but I've got a good feeling about these next couple of years.

[vicupstate]

If Metro park is too small for a Convention Center wouldn't the Old City Hall-courthouse site be MUCH too small? Particularly with the courthouse parking lot no longer part of the equation. 

[Tacachale]

If Metro park is too small for a Convention Center wouldn't the Old City Hall-courthouse site be MUCH too small? Particularly with the courthouse parking lot no longer part of the equation.

Yes. Without the space of the old parking lot, the courthouse space is substantially smaller than the current convention center.

[thelakelander]

Jacksonville would be pretty foolish to build a +500,000 square foot convention center. Even 200,000 square feet would be pushing it. Something with 100,000 to 150,000 square feet of exhibition space should be sufficient for our secondary market. Also, I can't see water taxis being a viable form of transportation as long as the fare is $5/person one way.

[Tacachale]

Jacksonville would be pretty foolish to build a +500,000 square foot convention center. Even 200,000 square feet would be pushing it. Something with 100,000 to 150,000 square feet of exhibition space should be sufficient for our secondary market. Also, I can't see water taxis being a viable form of transportation as long as the fare is $5/person one way.

A 100k sf center may work in the courthouse space. At that point, though, you start to question whether it's worth the cost at all, versus spending the money on something else.

[thelakelander]

From my perspective, a 100,000 to 120,000 square foot exhibition hall, combined with the Hyatt's existing 110,000 square foot of meeting space and 996 hotel rooms is as about as cost efficient as we can get for a convention center solution. We'd upgrade an existing underutilized and complimentary space with the exhibition space the Prime Osborn lacks.  That adds up to a significantly larger space than the Prime Osborn and it's as centralized as it can get.

[KenFSU]

Jacksonville would be pretty foolish to build a +500,000 square foot convention center. Even 200,000 square feet would be pushing it. Something with 100,000 to 150,000 square feet of exhibition space should be sufficient for our secondary market. Also, I can't see water taxis being a viable form of transportation as long as the fare is $5/person one way.

Totally agree with this. I'm far from convinced that a modernized convention center is a top 10 need for Jacksonville, but I'm fully convinced that it would be a fool's errand to try to compete with Atlanta or Orlando with a 500,000+ square foot facility. 150,000 thousand square feet of modern exhibition space, in a more appealing location, feels like it would be a sweet spot for Jacksonville.

Also, was just reading the Professional Convention Management Association's top two trends for convention space:

1) The definition of meeting space will evolve.

While conversations about convention centers typically include square footage figures and meeting room numbers, more meeting planners are looking for one essential adjective to describe the space inside a convention center: flexible.

"People no longer want to be shut in a room for a long period of time," Claire Smith, Vice President, Sales and Marketing, Vancouver Convention Centre, says. "Their attention spans are shorter, and they crave more opportunities to move around, meet people and share ideas."

Smith admits that the shift in human behavior can be challenging for some convention centers.

"It can be hard to respond to behavior changes when you're a brick and mortar," Smith says. "There are limitations to adjusting a physical space."

However, many meeting planners are overcoming those limitations, and Smith highlights that previously under-utilized portions of convention centers are playing an important role in attendee engagement.

"The foyer is the new meeting room," Smith says. "We're seeing groups use that space in ways we never would have imagined with attendees sitting cross-legged on the floor to participate in pop-up dialogues and full session presentations specifically scheduled for the foyer."

2) What's outside will matter even more.

Earlier this year, at the CEIR Predict Conference, Bob Priest-Heck, President and COO of Freeman, highlighted that an emerging generation of attendees looks at venues in a new light.

"Millennials don't see the convention center as the place where the event is happening," Priest-Heck said. "They look at the whole city as the venue."

Smith agrees, citing the 2011 Risk Insurance Management Society Annual Meeting as a prime example. From events at off-site destinations throughout the city to a sponsored sailboat with custom logos in the harbor outside the convention center, Smith says the organization is very conscious of using every inch of a destination to elevate the experience.

"It's important to celebrate the cities we're meeting in," Smith says.

Reading this got me thinking. A convention center proper at Metro Park doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There's room for a hotel, meeting space, ballrooms, etc. but it seems like it would be hard to squeeze an exhibition hall onto that property. But what if Daily's Place - nearly 100,000 square feet of climate-controlled flex space connected to the hotel/conference center by pedestrian bridge -- served as the exhibition hall. You could even leverage the amphitheater for conferences. You'd have to work around football season, but this actually sounds like the type of quirky venue that might differentiate Jacksonville from the big boxes and help land some mid-tier conventions that would otherwise think the city too vanilla to host.

On water taxis, I've been thinking about this a lot as of late. The current fares are expensive, but we work through an outside company, and I don't believe that the taxis are subsidized to nearly the extent that other public transportation in Jacksonville is. What's to stop JTA from getting into the water taxi business? Just in the last week or two on these boards, we've talked so much about the benefits of Skyway expansion in terms of connecting places like San Marco, Riverside, Brooklyn, Baptist/Aetna, the stadium district, the District, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm still in favor of Skyway expansion as a long-term transit solution, but couldn't achieve similar connectivity at a fraction of the cost, in 10% of the time, with infinitely more flexibility, with a water taxi loop?

Pardon my poor MS Paint skills, but something like this:



Call me crazy, but isn't this something that could potentially get a ton of commuter, recreational, event and tourist use if the service was reliable, headways were decent, and cost was more in line with bus fares?

We talk so much about how underutilized our river is, it seems like it would be a great way to get people interacting with the St. Johns, perhaps on a daily basis. You could even expand into Ortega or further into San Marco, have weekend service from downtown to the zoo, vary routes by time of day (extended commuter routes in the AM and PM), etc.

We also talk about Baltimore alot. Kevin Plank, founder of Under Armour, just purchased the Baltimore Water Taxi service outright (http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2016/08/22/more-details-on-the-new-water-taxi-stops-under.html) with the intention of increasing the fleet and adding new stops. He's already bought 10 state-of-the-art new water taxis with free wifi, 50-person capacity, and Uber integration. Total cost, $6.5 million (for context, we spent $4 million on escalators for Skyway stations alone this year and it would cost $15 million per track mile to expand).

Again, big Skyway supporter, but a strong water taxi service (rather than the four-boat, five-stop loop we currently have) seems like such a great opportunity in the short-term with a very high bang-for-the-buck.

[vicupstate]

While we are discussing sinking hundreds of millions into the Stadium District, maybe it is time to seriously discuss demolishing the ugly-as-homemade-sin elevated Commodore Expressway.  Given the reduced number of workers DT compared to the past and all the money going into the area, maybe now is the time to demo and bring it down to ground level starting at the Eastern edge of Metro Park. 

It is and always will be a physical and mental divide between the River and everything else in the area. It is not getting any younger either.   

P.S. A plan to move the jail, even if long term, would be great too.       

[thelakelander]

On water taxis, I've been thinking about this a lot as of late. The current fares are expensive, but we work through an outside company, and I don't believe that the taxis are subsidized to nearly the extent that other public transportation in Jacksonville is. What's to stop JTA from getting into the water taxi business? Just in the last week or two on these boards, we've talked so much about the benefits of Skyway expansion in terms of connecting places like San Marco, Riverside, Brooklyn, Baptist/Aetna, the stadium district, the District, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm still in favor of Skyway expansion as a long-term transit solution, but couldn't achieve similar connectivity at a fraction of the cost, in 10% of the time, with infinitely more flexibility, with a water taxi loop?

Pardon my poor MS Paint skills, but something like this:



Call me crazy, but isn't this something that could potentially get a ton of commuter, recreational, event and tourist use if the service was reliable, headways were decent, and cost was more in line with bus fares?

We talk so much about how underutilized our river is, it seems like it would be a great way to get people interacting with the St. Johns, perhaps on a daily basis. You could even expand into Ortega or further into San Marco, have weekend service from downtown to the zoo, vary routes by time of day (extended commuter routes in the AM and PM), etc.

We also talk about Baltimore alot. Kevin Plank, founder of Under Armour, just purchased the Baltimore Water Taxi service outright (http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2016/08/22/more-details-on-the-new-water-taxi-stops-under.html) with the intention of increasing the fleet and adding new stops. He's already bought 10 state-of-the-art new water taxis with free wifi, 50-person capacity, and Uber integration. Total cost, $6.5 million (for context, we spent $4 million on escalators for Skyway stations alone this year and it would cost $15 million per track mile to expand).

Again, big Skyway supporter, but a strong water taxi service (rather than the four-boat, five-stop loop we currently have) seems like such a great opportunity in the short-term with a very high bang-for-the-buck.

Don't forget that Baltimore also has heavy rail, light rail and even a free bus service called the Charm City Circulator serving the Inner Harbor, downtown and surrounding neighborhoods. Even there, the water taxi is more of a tourist oriented service than true transit for commuters. So like a horse and carriage ride in a tourist district, it's more of complementing piece (with no TOD/land development stimulation opportunity) as opposed to an outright alternative.