Curry's sham coalition

[benmarcus]

The two Democrats the Mayor had speak, today, were intricately part of the problem. Hazouri was Mayor when Keane took the fund over in 1990 and Glover was a board member. I have yet to see Hazouri, specifically, taken to task for standing by as a completely unqualified good ol' boy took over the fund and even made it independent. This "coalition" the Mayor has rolled out is nothing more than people who want to make sure they have a good relationship with him, and seemingly the politicians who created the problem to begin with. Not to mention the fact that his plan was basically crafted behind closed doors and with nonstarters like no property tax increase, for example.

[Noone]

^Good information. I'm voting NO to BJP-Better Jacksonville Pension

[MusicMan]

Vote NO people. There is a better plan out there, but don't count on Lenny Curry to create it. He is a joke. Not much more you can say.

We have an "EMERGENCY" on our hands so lets start dealing with it in 15 years. Puh Leeze!

Ben Marcus for Mayor?

[dv8]

This "coalition" the Mayor has rolled out is nothing more than people who want to make sure they have a good relationship with him, and seemingly the politicians who created the problem to begin with.

PLUS millions in funding to PR the shit out of this issue from those who benefited from the f'd up way this city has been run for the last 30 years.  all just to keep in place the politicians who CREATED THIS PROBLEM to begin with. 

full circle.  PLEASE VOTE, vote NO, don't be a sucker.  Who gets the "better" Jax here?

[Tacachale]

The two Democrats the Mayor had speak, today, we're intricately part of the problem. Hazouri was Mayor when Keane took the fund over in 1990 and Glover was a board member. I have yet to see Hazouri, specifically, taken to task for standing by as a completely unqualified good ol' boy took over the fund and even made it independent. This "coalition" the Mayor has rolled out is nothing more than people who want to make sure they have a good relationship with him, and seemingly the politicians who created the problem to begin with. Not to mention the fact that his plan was basically crafted behind closed doors and with nonstarters like no property tax increase, for example.

I wasn't going to respond to this, but as it's still showing up in the new comments, I will. Your statements tell me that you don't know the first thing about either Tommy Hazouri or Nat Glover. In general, you speak about current and historical Jax politics with a lot more confidence than acuity.

[mtraininjax]

Because MJ voters are screaming "NO", the southside will probably vote "YES" and it will pass.

[benmarcus]

The two Democrats the Mayor had speak, today, we're intricately part of the problem. Hazouri was Mayor when Keane took the fund over in 1990 and Glover was a board member. I have yet to see Hazouri, specifically, taken to task for standing by as a completely unqualified good ol' boy took over the fund and even made it independent. This "coalition" the Mayor has rolled out is nothing more than people who want to make sure they have a good relationship with him, and seemingly the politicians who created the problem to begin with. Not to mention the fact that his plan was basically crafted behind closed doors and with nonstarters like no property tax increase, for example.

I wasn't going to respond to this, but as it's still showing up in the new comments, I will. Your statements tell me that you don't know the first thing about either Tommy Hazouri or Nat Glover. In general, you speak about current and historical Jax politics with a lot more confidence than acuity.

Then please educate me.

[benmarcus]

Because MJ voters are screaming "NO", the southside will probably vote "YES" and it will pass.

It's going to pass and it's because people, by and large, seem to have bought into the idea that somehow putting off debt which has already been put off for decades, will fix the core issues with the budget. It's that toxic combination of being too busy with their lives and burnt out on politics. I think it may be closer than they think, though. We will see. I'm not too optimistic about it failing. 

[camarocane]

Pass or not, they will still need every union approval. I'm sure those folks are not willing to take a 2% pay cut unless there is some carrot they can negotiate in their respective contracts. 
I will assume the police and fire unions will capitulate, the others I'm not so sure of. 

[benmarcus]

Pass or not, they will still need every union approval. I'm sure those folks are not willing to take a 2% pay cut unless there is some carrot they can negotiate in their respective contracts. 
I will assume the police and fire unions will capitulate, the others I'm not so sure of.

That's what I'm assuming, as well, but I'm not so sure. The General Employee Fund is what I'm most concerned about. They're represented by AFSCME, but are only at around 20% membership thanks to right to work. That means they have very little cash on hand and very little political clout with their constituents. They're saying they'll bring "their best pension negotiators" to the table, but without members behind them, it's not going to be very effective...

[tufsu1]

Because MJ voters are screaming "NO", the southside will probably vote "YES" and it will pass.

the southside won't be the issue here.  It all comes down to the northside and westside.

[Tacachale]

The two Democrats the Mayor had speak, today, we're intricately part of the problem. Hazouri was Mayor when Keane took the fund over in 1990 and Glover was a board member. I have yet to see Hazouri, specifically, taken to task for standing by as a completely unqualified good ol' boy took over the fund and even made it independent. This "coalition" the Mayor has rolled out is nothing more than people who want to make sure they have a good relationship with him, and seemingly the politicians who created the problem to begin with. Not to mention the fact that his plan was basically crafted behind closed doors and with nonstarters like no property tax increase, for example.

I wasn't going to respond to this, but as it's still showing up in the new comments, I will. Your statements tell me that you don't know the first thing about either Tommy Hazouri or Nat Glover. In general, you speak about current and historical Jax politics with a lot more confidence than acuity.

Then please educate me.

For starters, neither Hazouri nor Glover are responsible for John Keane taking over at PFPF, which is governed by a volunteer board. Assuming that Hazouri was serving when the PFPF became independent, in retrospect it seems like a mistake, but neither that nor Keane are what "created the problem to begin with". If they were, the fiasco wouldn't have taken nearly 20 years to hit.

Your comments skip a lot of historical context that's inconvenient to your point. Notably, while the pension has always had its problems, it was fully funded as recently as 2003. The major problems we're seeing now have manifested since that time, and in fact the vast majority have occurred since 2008/09 - when we had a certain recession you might recall. If anything, the city's handling of the crisis since the Great Recession is more responsible for the continuing problem. But even that is a pointless exercise in blamesmanship if we don't finally step up and fix the problem.

As in a lot of your posts, you're portraying things through a Left-vs-Right, us-vs-them lens that's not representative of local politics in Jacksonville. Democrats who support the plan must be sycophants, etc. This ignores the fact that Hazouri and Curry have butted heads since coming into their current offices. At one point, Curry threw shade at Hazouri using Jay-Z lyrics, and Hazouri has been roundly critical of the way the HRO has been handled. Nat Glover, meanwhile, is one of the most respected public servants in Jacksonville history. He was one of the earliest African-American police officers hired in Jacksonville, rose to Undersheriff and then became our most effective sheriff in recent memory. They, as well as many other current and former Democratic officials, support the plan, and others are against it. Things aren't so black and white as you're painting them.

Your short time in Jax is evident in comments like "I have yet to see Hazouri, specifically, taken to task..." as if someone who was in the public sector 40 years before you set foot in Jax had not been the subject of scrutiny until this forum post.

You seem like a bright guy, and very passionate. But if you want to talk history, you've got to pay attention in history class.

[benmarcus]

The two Democrats the Mayor had speak, today, we're intricately part of the problem. Hazouri was Mayor when Keane took the fund over in 1990 and Glover was a board member. I have yet to see Hazouri, specifically, taken to task for standing by as a completely unqualified good ol' boy took over the fund and even made it independent. This "coalition" the Mayor has rolled out is nothing more than people who want to make sure they have a good relationship with him, and seemingly the politicians who created the problem to begin with. Not to mention the fact that his plan was basically crafted behind closed doors and with nonstarters like no property tax increase, for example.

I wasn't going to respond to this, but as it's still showing up in the new comments, I will. Your statements tell me that you don't know the first thing about either Tommy Hazouri or Nat Glover. In general, you speak about current and historical Jax politics with a lot more confidence than acuity.

Then please educate me.

For starters, neither Hazouri nor Glover are responsible for John Keane taking over at PFPF, which is governed by a volunteer board. Assuming that Hazouri was serving when the PFPF became independent, in retrospect it seems like a mistake, but neither that nor Keane are what "created the problem to begin with". If they were, the fiasco wouldn't have taken nearly 20 years to hit.

Your comments skip a lot of historical context that's inconvenient to your point. Notably, while the pension has always had its problems, it was fully funded as recently as 2003. The major problems we're seeing now have manifested since that time, and in fact the vast majority have occurred since 2008/09 - when we had a certain recession you might recall. If anything, the city's handling of the crisis since the Great Recession is more responsible for the continuing problem. But even that is a pointless exercise in blamesmanship if we don't finally step up and fix the problem.

As in a lot of your posts, you're portraying things through a Left-vs-Right, us-vs-them lens that's not representative of local politics in Jacksonville. Democrats who support the plan must be sycophants, etc. This ignores the fact that Hazouri and Curry have butted heads since coming into their current offices. At one point, Curry threw shade at Hazouri using Jay-Z lyrics, and Hazouri has been roundly critical of the way the HRO has been handled. Nat Glover, meanwhile, is one of the most respected public servants in Jacksonville history. He was one of the earliest African-American police officers hired in Jacksonville, rose to Undersheriff and then became our most effective sheriff in recent memory. They, as well as many other current and former Democratic officials, support the plan, and others are against it. Things aren't so black and white as you're painting them.

Your short time in Jax is evident in comments like "I have yet to see Hazouri, specifically, taken to task..." as if someone who was in the public sector 40 years before you set foot in Jax had not been the subject of scrutiny until this forum post.

You seem like a bright guy, and very passionate. But if you want to talk history, you've got to pay attention in history class.

I've found about a dozen news articles from 1988-1992 which are particularly relevant to this issue and which I will be reviewing at the library sometime this week via their microfilm archive. They range from apparent mismangement highlighted as early as 1992 (2 years after Keane took over and 1 year after Hazouri lost his reelection bid) to a discussion of the retooling of the fund. And they have taken 20 years to hit because of the mismangement of the fund from the beginning.

I have been following the story very closely and do my research, so let's not get to those kind of accusations. I can appreciate Hazouri and Glover stepping up in support of a "fix" but to absolve them of any guilt for the situation we're in while thinking about the plan they are getting behind seems shortsighted. Hazouri, while clearly one of the more level-headed politicians in this town, is not some white knight. There are skeletons in that closet as much as others and his connection to the problem has not been brought up in this debate. That's an issue and oversight by the press, in my opinion. If the Mayor is going to roll him out as some sort of counterbalance, there should be a full story there.

Glover, while absolutely one of Jax's most treasured public servants (and well deserved) was a part of that board during critical periods of time (and missed many meetings) and has been on the periphery for the entirety of the crisis. That's not an indictment of him. But, again, I think it's important to understand who these folks are in relation to the issue.

Also, I do want to object strongly to your portrayal of me as some sort of partisan. I am far from it, my friend. I've been a registered independent basically my entire adult life and any of my friends who know my professional career can attest to the lumps I've taken, as a result.

Jacksonville has a problem with leadership. There is a lack of courage from the current cadre of leaders. The HRO and this pension issue are perfect examples. As has been my central point thru the entirety of this debate, we should not let our elected leaders get away with a half-baked "fix" which just kicks the issue down the road, again.

I'll report back with pictures of the microfilm sometime later this week so we can all get information directly from the era.

[brainstormer]

The picture in the TU of all those supporters - average age was probably 60? How old is Nat Glover? Will he even be around in 2030, bless his soul? Perhaps people over a certain age shouldn't even be allowed to vote on this issue.

How Cunning Curry has managed to trick so many into believing this is the only way to solve the pension problem does not say much for the intelligence of our city and civic leaders. A true leader would have developed a comprehensive plan that involves pre-bargained negotiations with the unions, an increase in property taxes to start paying the debt now, and perhaps conversation about a long term funding source in the future. The taxes in Jacksonville are so low compared to St. Johns County. People aren't scared of higher taxes, because thousands every year choose to pay CDD fees. To them it is worth having good schools, a nice neighborhood, and a healthy quality of life. I would rather be paying my fair share now, rather than gambling on something that has too many unknowns.

Proud to be voting NO on August 30.

[southsideBob]

The sales tax is regressive, hurting the poor most. The only put one option to vote for.
So, my choice was no!