Dow down 600 points...think its gonna get worse...

[Driven1]

oh yeah  - and in the meantime, while things are "loosening up" magically, what do you think will happen to the economy?

[BridgeTroll]

CNN reprters are falling all over themselves calling this "McCains failed bill"...

[Driven1]

CNN reprters are falling all over themselves calling this "McCains failed bill"...

of course.  morons.  partisan politics again.  give me a break...


now for some real news...

latest comments from message boards...

WOW...     33 minutes ago     It's amazing that the drop was so significant that my Puts almost cancel out the losses of my calls and I'm much heavier on the call volume. What a scary day/week/month.

Good luck to everyone this week. I know the shorts are snickering, but there is only so much of a drop you can hope for. If we see a complete collapse, then all the money you make going short is worthless anyways.

I have never seen anything like the last two weeks and the thought that it could get worse scares the Sh$t out of me. Not because of my positions, but because of our way of life is being challenged. 

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_P/threadview?m=te&bn=14496&tid=87063&mid=87063&tof=7&frt=1#87063

[BridgeTroll]

guys - you may have enough money to not need credit, but the vast majority of Americans are not in the same boat.  where will Middleclass Joe now get his car loan from?  or Mrs. Tanner who wants to open the tanning salon and needs a business loan?  or Mr. and Mrs. Youngmarrieds who have great credit and want to buy their first home and no one has the money to loan them? 

say all that you want to, but please tell me WHERE the loans will come from? 

They will have to wait.  While waiting they need to save cash so they can put money down when the time comes.  It will come but it looks like we will be in a cash mostly economy for awhile.

Do businesses actually take out loans to make payroll??  I heard this today on CNN...  If this is true it seems to me that there are a lot of businesses that were on a wing and a prayer long before this crisis.  It may be time to clear away the dead wood before the entire forest goes up in flames.  Time to go back to the way things were done 30 years ago.  Less credit... much less and more cash... save your money and live within your means.

Yes, Bridge Troll, this was one of the indicators in March.  The large retail chains were denied their yearly lines of credit which allow them to cover payroll and inventory until the holiday sales season.

That didnt happen this year, causing an early round of closing announcements, but after this christmas, the REAL closings will take place.

Although i posted on this in detail at the time, several other posters drowned out the real news.

There may have been signs in March but the problem goes much deeper.  Somehow in this country we convinced ourselves it is OK to make 50k a year and live like we make 100k...  More credit cards, bigger better car, bigger better house, TV, computer, washer dryer... all bought on credit... all bought with money we did not have but always expected to make eventually.  Worse yet the economy has been built on the rising consumer debt... retailers extended credit to keep people buying things they could not afford.

[apvbguy]

taking your medicine is not easy and it rarely tastes good but in the end the foul tasting medicine will make the patient better. This bill was a placebo that would have made things feel better but it wouldn't have cured anything.
there is and probably will be more blood running down wall st. but that is the price that has to be paid.

for once we agree.

you are like a blind squirrel, every once in awhile you come up with a chestnut

[chipwich]

I'm leaving my office to go buy some plywood, duct-tape and vinyl sheathing to start my very own shantytown.

Anyone wanna join me?  I'm sure if we act quickly enough, we can set up a cool place in the spot that they were going to build the St. John on.

[BridgeTroll]

 

[apvbguy]

you are like a blind squirrel, every once in awhile you come up with a chestnut

simply because I am agreeing with your basic recitation of a tenet of classic capitalism doesnt entitle you to pretend parity exists between our underlying understanding of the situation.

This statement is kind of like hearing an eleven year old attempt to correct an adult.  I appreciate your eagerness to appear clever, but I would suggest waiting until you actually are before you attempt it again.

bwahahahaha, there you go again, do you really think that you so important that I give a hoot of your impression of me? regardless of you or anyone else siding with me, liking or disliking my opinions I am confident and secure enough not to care

[apvbguy]

guys - you may have enough money to not need credit, but the vast majority of Americans are not in the same boat.  where will Middleclass Joe now get his car loan from?  or Mrs. Tanner who wants to open the tanning salon and needs a business loan?  or Mr. and Mrs. Youngmarrieds who have great credit and want to buy their first home and no one has the money to loan them? 

say all that you want to, but please tell me WHERE the loans will come from? 

unfortunately for them, that is the bad taste of the medicine that we all will have to endure as the price to pay for this mess. This is what that failed bill was about, it was about avoiding the consequences. The reality is that the country will be worse off for this bill not passing but the bill offered was too flawed, maybe the moronic politicos will get their act together and pass a responsible bill that will make the medicine a bit more palatable

[apvbguy]

obviously you do.  IN fact, the only thing you ever post on IS other people opinions and how they either compare or contrast to yours.  Its generally not an indicator of either confidence or security when someone does this.

However.....whatever lets you sleep at night.

And I wouldnt count on anyone 'siding' with you.

However, you might occasionally just be right.

You will find the experience not only new, but actually thrilling.

maybe the being blind analogy isn't too far off base, I am posting facts and opinions, you are posting insults and innuendos, try and post civilly

[apvbguy]

obviously you do.  IN fact, the only thing you ever post on IS other people opinions and how they either compare or contrast to yours.  Its generally not an indicator of either confidence or security when someone does this.

However.....whatever lets you sleep at night.

And I wouldnt count on anyone 'siding' with you.

However, you might occasionally just be right.

You will find the experience not only new, but actually thrilling.

maybe the being blind analogy isn't too far off base, I am posting facts and opinions, you are posting insults and innuendos, try and post civilly

Ah.  yes.  Civility.  thank you for reminding me.
APVBGuy, please observe our rules of civility and try not to insult others in your posts.  Make your points and you will find that people take them more seriously.

bwahahahaha, now the pot calls the kettle black. try and keep it real

[whitey]

Further:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/28/news/economy/Sunday_talks_bailout/index.htm?postversion=2008092822

Key provisions of the bill
Doling the money out: The $700 billion would be disbursed in stages, with $250 billion made available immediately for the Treasury's use. Authority to use the money would expire on Dec. 31, 2009, unless Congress certifies a one-year extension.

Protecting taxpayers: The ultimate cost to the taxpayer is not expected to be near the amount the Treasury invests in the program. That's because the government would buy assets that have underlying value.

If the Treasury pays fair market value - which investors have had a hard time determining - taxpayers stand a chance to break even or even make a profit if those assets throw off income or appreciate in value by the time the government sells them. If it overpays for the assets, the government could be left with a net loss but would get something back on the open market for the assets when it eventually sells them.

Here's my question:  What in Hades' name does that mean?  How am *I* going to profit from this, exactly?  Am I going to be cut a check from the Federal Government, saying "here - we had good returns"?  Are they going to cut me a tax break in the future, equivalent of whatever the gains on this were?  Not bloodly likely, says I. 

I want them to tell me - draw it out in 5th-grade, draw-it-out-in-crayon-for-me terms - how the hell I, as a taxpayer, am going to profit from any of this.

From what little I've read of the bill, the profits would go into the general fund of the federal gov't.  I have also seen some articles that show 20% of something going to groups such as ACORN, which seems like a blatant earmark.  No wonder why the bill went from 3 pages to 44 pages to 110 pages.

[whitey]

Excellent posting, BT.  One more peice of evidence that most DC politicians are more self-serving that either side will ever care to admit.  Yet another reason there should be Congressional term limits as well.  It's all about CYA in Washington right now, at the expense (literally) of everyone else.

Infuriating.

yep - we never will know how the markets would've treated a passage, but I don't think it would've been a HUGE upswing...the intl markets had already spoken before our markets opened today.  they said $700b was not enough to turn things around globally.  this, along with the bad consumer goods spending report that was released over the weekend, spells bad things in the near term for us i believe.  hard to ignore all the signs now.

The global markets this morning were dealing with their own bank failures in Europe, I doubt it had anything to do with the $700 billion bill that was announced last week.

[whitey]

For once, I feel like the Congressional Republicans are making a stand for the right thing.

I was with the Dems on this one.  Can't believe i said that.  It was a good package.  Wouldn't have been a panacea, but would've helped.  Doing nothing is going to be worse.

The original 3 page proposal may have been good, the revised 44 page proposal may have been ok, but the 110 page bill up for vote was filled with 100+ pages of BS and earmarks.

As usual, Congress has managed to dig their dirty fingers in and screw up something that may have actually been beneficial.

[whitey]

Do businesses actually take out loans to make payroll??  I heard this today on CNN...  If this is true it seems to me that there are a lot of businesses that were on a wing and a prayer long before this crisis.  It may be time to clear away the dead wood before the entire forest goes up in flames.  Time to go back to the way things were done 30 years ago.  Less credit... much less and more cash... save your money and live within your means.

I will keep it simple, if a customer pays with a credit card, the business does not see that money for awhile but they still have to pay employees that week.

Almost every sizeable company has a line of revolving credit, bills due do not always coincide with payments taken.