Last generation of Timucua

[Tacachale]

From this conversation:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,26739.0.html

Didnt the last self-declared Timucua die in 1803?

The last known full blooded Timucua, Juan Alonso Cavale, died in 1767 in Cuba. There were also a few Timucua living deep in the Okefenokee Swamp who held out for longer than that. And there were a number others of Timucua ancestry (including Cavale's sons, whose mother was Yamassee) but they melded into other European or Indian groups by 1800.

Hey Tach,

Any good places where I can read on that final generation of Timucua?

Several good books cover this. One of the better ones is John Worth's The Timucua Chiefdoms of Spanish Florida, Volume II: Resistance and Destruction. It has chapters on the final destruction of the last Timucua chiefdoms by the English and their Indian allies from 1675-1706, and on the the last remnants of the Timucua (and others) after that. John Hann's The Timucua Chiefdoms of Spanish Florida also has a good bit of info, as does Jerald Milanich's The Timucua, which is a broad survey.

Online there's not too much that I've found, but you can read parts of Worth and Milanich on Google Books. Most of those books are at local libraries, and there was a copy of Hann's book in Chamblin's Uptown.This paper by John Hann has some details on what happened in the last Spanish missions in Florida, though it doesn't get much into the Timucua specifically. At any rate, prepare to be depressed.

[Tacachale]

This article also has information on Floridanos who moved to Cuba in 1763, including the Indians who settled mostly in Guanabacoa.

http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/13822373-90002628%3Fcrawler%3Dtrue

[spuwho]

This is excellent material and I really appreciate it.

I am reading the Floridanos now and it is very fascinating read.

Yes, I understand how it could depress, but it connects some cultural dots for me.

Thank you again for the prompt response. Adds a new perspective when I am walking through the Timucuan Preserve.

Somewhere I read that the Timucua were very tall compared to their Euro based peers.

[Tacachale]

I found another article by Worth online which discusses the Florida Indians' move to Cuba.

http://uwf.edu/jworth/WorthSEAC2004.pdf

I'm glad it's interesting to you. It's unfortunate that the period the Timucua lived and died is something of a "Dark Age" in the way American history is traditionally studied. What little we hear about in this timeframe is mostly from the British perspective, which is valuable, but it's not the whole story.

[Tacachale]

Somewhere I read that the Timucua were very tall compared to their Euro based peers.

This is frequently said about the Timucua and other native peoples, but I think it's something of an urban legend. Some of the early Europeans did describe Florida Indians as being tall, well-built and good looking, and in a few cases claimed groups or individuals were exceptionally tall, sometimes absurdly so. The most notorious claim in this vein was probably the chronicler of Magellan's expedition's account saying the natives of Patagonia were giants so tall that Europeans came only to their waist. This claim stayed around for a long time, even after Francis Drake visited and found them to just be relatively tall normal folks.

In the context of the Timucua, I think it starts with the account of Athore, a chief the French met. During the Fort Caroline expedition, he brought Rene Laudonniere and others to see the monument Jean Ribault had erected two years before. The event is depicted in one of the engravings made later:



The description remarks that "this chief, Athore, is very handsome, prudent, honorable, strong, and of very great stature, being more than half a foot taller than the tallest of our men, and his bearing was marked by a modest gravity, which had a strikingly majestic effect." The etching plays this up to full effect, making Athore look pretty imposing and majestic.

The average height for European men was about 5'5" at the time. A particular individual at around 6 feet or more would seem pretty tall from that perspective, but isn't really incredible. But today, we routinely hear from pop history books and tours in St. Augustine that *all* Timucua were 6', based as far as I can tell on some anecdotes that they were pretty tall, and one dude was quite tall.

The statement is sometimes accompanied by claims that the Spaniards were very short. I heard one guide claim that the Timucua were all over 6' and that the Spanish were all under 5'. I guess they were all Hobbits.

[spuwho]

Sorry, shifting gears a little, what do you think caused the big fire that brought Chief Alamacani over to Fort Caroline to see if the Spanish were there fighting?

It was noted in the French journals and I have been curious about that fire near what is St Johns Bluff today.

[Tacachale]

Sorry, shifting gears a little, what do you think caused the big fire that brought Chief Alamacani over to Fort Caroline to see if the Spanish were there fighting?

It was noted in the French journals and I have been curious about that fire near what is St Johns Bluff today.

This is a really interesting topic. It was discussed here in the forums a few years ago; I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Tacachale]

Here's the passage describing the fire on August 29, 1564:

So things moved along, and the hate of Chief Satouriona against me continued. On August 29 there fell on the fort such a stroke of lightning that I think it more worthy of interest and of being recorded than any unusual thing that has yet come to pass, more strange than historians have ever written about. The fields were at that time all green and half covered with water, and yet the lightning in one instant consumed about 500 acres and burned with such a bright heat that all the birds which lived in the meadows were consumed. This thing continued for three days. It left us in wonderment, because we could not guess where all the fire came from. At first we had the opinion that the Indians had burned their houses for fear of us, abandoning their old places. Then we thought that they might have observed some ships in the sea and, following their usual custom, lighted up fires here and there to show that people lived in this land. Finally not being reassured, I decided to send to Chief Serranay to find out the truth. But as I was on the point of sending out a boat to ascertain the facts, six Indians arrived from the land of Chief Allicamany. On entering, they made a long statement, but first they presented several baskets of corn, pumpkins, and grapes. Then they spoke of the amiable alliance that Allicamany wished to enter into with me. They said he could hardly wait, from day to day, until the hour would come when it would please me to put him in my service. They said that in view of the obedience that he had given me, he found it very strange that I should direct such a cannonade against his dwelling, making many of the green prairies burn away right up to the waterline, so much so that he expected to see the fire in his house. Because of this he humbly begged me to order my men not to shoot any more toward his lodging, otherwise he would have to abandon his land and go to a place more distant from us.

When we heard the foolish opinion of this man, which might nevertheless be very profitable for us, I spoke expediently as to what I thought of the matter at that time, responding to the Indians with a happy countenance and saying that what they had told me of the obedience of their chief was very agreeable with me because previously he had not behaved himself in that way toward me, especially when I had told him to send me the prisoners that he detained of the great Olata Ouae Outina, even though he counted them unimportant [This is something Saturiwa did, not Alicamani]. I told him that this was the principal reason why I had sent the cannonade, and not that I had wanted to reach his house, as I could easily have done that if I had wanted to do so. I said that I had been content to fire just halfway down the course to let him know of my power. I assured him that if he continued in his good behavior, my men would not be shooting at him in the future and I would be his loyal defender against his greatest enemies. The Indians were content with this response and returned to reassure their chief who, notwithstanding this reassurance, kept away from his home and at a distance of about twenty-five leagues for a period of about two months. At the end of three days the fire was entirely extinguished. But for two days after that there was such excessive heat in the air that the river near which we had our habitation became so hot that it seemed almost to boil. Many fish died and of many species, to such an extent that in the mouth of the river alone there were enough dead fish to fill fifty carts. The putrefaction in the air bred so many dangerous diseases among us that most of my men fell sick and seemed about ready to finish their days. However, our good Lord took care of us and we all survived without a single death.

This is from Charles Bennett's translation of Laudonniere, Three Voyages, pp. 88-90.

There are a few things to note here. First, of course, is the massive "stroke of lightning" that Laudonniere found "more worthy of interest and of being recorded than any unusual thing that has yet come to pass, more strange than historians have ever written about". It must have been some sight, and was apparently a marvel for both the French and the Timucua.

It's possible Laudonniere (or his editors) have confused a few things. First, he's talking about "Allicamany", or Alicamani, a chief whose town was on Fort George Island, across the river from Fort Caroline in Arlington. However, some of the details sound more like he's talking about "Satouriona" (Saturiwa), the paramount chief around the St. Johns River mouth. For example, it was Saturiwa, not Alicamani, who refused to send Laudonniere captured prisoners, causing grievance between the two groups. Saturiwa lived on the south side of the river near Fort Caroline, so it also would make more sense for the French to have seen all the destruction if the strike had happened on that side of the river.

Retired UNF astronomy professor Jay Huebner thinks the strike may have been a meteor. I communicated with him a few years ago about it, and he thinks the description of the event and the destruction are consistent with a meteor strike. He thinks it may have struck at Round Marsh in the present-day Timucuan Preserve. The marsh is so called because of its unusual formation - it's almost perfectly round. It's been something of a mystery for many years. Many people think it must have had a human origin to have that shape; it could have been an undocumented rice paddy. A meteor could also do it. I spoke to Fort Caroline expert Dr. Buzz Thunen and he said he thinks the meteor explanation is plausible. It'll take more evidence to determine. Unfortunately there's not much money for these kinds of investigations.

[spuwho]

Good recalling of the event. Thank you.

Based on this and some of the effects outlined by the French I would most definitely say a meteorite struck the marsh nearby.

The fact that it nearly "boiled" the river and the dead fish stacked up at the river mouth is telling let alone a fire that burned for days.

2 things are required to verify the Round Marsh site as an impact center.

First is to take soil sample cores and look for a layer of carbon black or burnt material in an area around the predicted strike zone.

The closer to a strike zone, the thicker the carbon layer would be.

Second is to get a seismic survey done of the marsh area including any measurements for magnetic anomalies.  Usually meteor strikes leave behind a magnetic signature.

I have seen some ground imaging from satellite that have located some subterranean featues left behind by earlier civilizations, but I dont know if anyone had any reason to image anything in this area.

If we were located near an oil exploration zone, we could probably swag an hour or two from their seismic team, but the closest ones are all based on Houston.

Would be a great thing to validate the story of the French and it would put to rest the "Altahatma Theory" of Fort Caroline.