Coming Soon to DT Jax: Lofts at LaVilla

[Steve]

^There's a flip side to that, and that is Berkman Plaza which has an awful site plan. While I don't think this is anywhere near as bad as that, I think the DDRB needs to hold to the spirit of the standards (not always the letter).

[hiddentrack]

I can't imagine the current street is used often (except when the empty lots are used for parking), so it doesn't seem like a huge loss to me. There's an intersection just a few hundred feet away if you're going west.

Of course it isn't used often - there are no buildings there that necessitate its use.

My complaint is more about pedestrians than cars. Cars can go down to Broad (Remember, Jefferson is one way South), make a left on Broad, make a left on Bay at that ridiculous intersection there, go through Jefferson and come back around. A headache, but at least it's 72 degrees and dry inside your car.

Obviously, if nothing is built people will walk through the grass. I'm assuming that something gets built eventually. A pedestrian obviously can walk up Jefferson and come back around, but superblocks aren't great for people walking. I'm hoping that we can just make that a regular street, with sidewalks and everything, and call it a day.

Good point. There's no reason they couldn't put access to the parking garage along a new side street instead of Water and W Bay. If a regular street can't be done, I don't see any reason a sidewalk couldn't be added alongside the eastern edge of the site as part of this project. That sidewalk could eventually become a dedicated pedestrian walkway or plaza in front of retail the next developer adds as things fill in in the direction of downtown. But then we'd be depending on that next developer to add retail or public space they might not be interested in doing either...

Judging by the trees on both sides of the entrance to the service drive, it seems like it will be uncovered, however it also looks like the entrance may be gated (if that's what those dark lines are halfway across each side's entrance).

Those dark lines halfway across each side's entrance are painted stop bars.

Ah, that makes sense. I'd never noticed them in other presentations and assumed they must be something else. Thanks!

[fieldafm]

That sidewalk could eventually become a dedicated pedestrian walkway or plaza in front of retail the next developer adds as things fill in in the direction of downtown. But then we'd be depending on that next developer to add retail or public space they might not be interested in doing either...

If residential projects completely line up from the Skyway Station to the Courthouse parking garage (which would mean roughly 8 more multifamily buildings go vertical in that stretch of land), then you wouldn't need to 'force' retail. The developers would be clamoring for it as you'd have about 3,000 units within a compact, 4 block, urban area.. assuming you probably top out at 5-6 stories per building. At that point, the market would pretty much demand that you have somewhere to eat for the thousands of residents that would be paying good money to live there.  As of now, you have 120 units of affordable housing (not exactly the demographic with the kind of spending power that retailers clamor for) being proposed on what amounts to a landscape similar to what Neil Armstrong saw when he stepped out of the Eagle.   In that context, I think its perfectly ok to make some realistic accommodations.   

[thelakelander]

I can't imagine the current street is used often (except when the empty lots are used for parking), so it doesn't seem like a huge loss to me. There's an intersection just a few hundred feet away if you're going west.

Of course it isn't used often - there are no buildings there that necessitate its use.

My complaint is more about pedestrians than cars. Cars can go down to Broad (Remember, Jefferson is one way South), make a left on Broad, make a left on Bay at that ridiculous intersection there, go through Jefferson and come back around. A headache, but at least it's 72 degrees and dry inside your car.

Obviously, if nothing is built people will walk through the grass. I'm assuming that something gets built eventually. A pedestrian obviously can walk up Jefferson and come back around, but superblocks aren't great for people walking. I'm hoping that we can just make that a regular street, with sidewalks and everything, and call it a day.

Good point. There's no reason they couldn't put access to the parking garage along a new side street instead of Water and W Bay. If a regular street can't be done, I don't see any reason a sidewalk couldn't be added alongside the eastern edge of the site as part of this project. That sidewalk could eventually become a dedicated pedestrian walkway or plaza in front of retail the next developer adds as things fill in in the direction of downtown. But then we'd be depending on that next developer to add retail or public space they might not be interested in doing either...

We have a public space across the street in the form of the entrance to the old terminal.  There's green space, a fountain and lots of concrete. Of course, it's underutilized but there's no reason it can't one day be as vibrant and successful as the entrance to Denver's Union Station.


Jacksonville Terminal


Denver Union Station

Same goes for retail. Assuming this JRTC thing finally comes on line.  It should be designed to include some centralized retail/dining spaces that serve both transit users and future area residents/workers. Additional retail opportunities will rise as the area's density increases.

[Kerry]

Count me as opposed to creating another super-block as well.  Street are the only public space we have and we can't keep closing them off.  Plus, one of the JRTA proposals already calls for making Stuart one-way.  Not only do we need to stop closing roads and making more one-way streets, we need to be restoring the 2-way grid.  I hear all this talk with JTA and the City saying how they want to revitalize downtown: if that is true then they need to stop the non-sense that contributed to the problem in the first place.

[Kay]

Count me as opposed to creating another super-block as well.  Street are the only public space we have and we can't keep closing them off.  Plus, one of the JRTA proposals already calls for making Stuart one-way.  Not only do we need to stop closing roads and making more one-way streets, we need to be restoring the 2-way grid.  I hear all this talk with JTA and the City saying how they want to revitalize downtown: if that is true then they need to stop the non-sense that contributed to the problem in the first place.

Could not agree more.  Getting the streets right is so key to everything.  I despise the fact that the Brooklyn apartments on Park St. closed off that cross street (Dora?) for gated parking.  They could have put the gates on the side of the road and kept it open.

[Steve]

^No Dispute. That's why the solution to this (to me) is easy. If they're taking up an existing road, have them convert that "service court" into a regular two-way road with sidewalks. I'm fine with that.

Superblocks are one thing being in a vehicle, but even worse as a pedestrian.

[Kerry]

Could not agree more.  Getting the streets right is so key to everything.  I despise the fact that the Brooklyn apartments on Park St. closed off that cross street (Dora?) for gated parking.  They could have put the gates on the side of the road and kept it open.

I was thinking that exact same thing yesterday.

[Dapperdan]

One thing is nice is that the units are close to a Skyway Station. I am fine with the design as is. Anything at this point to get people in will be nice. Once that transportation center goes up, these lucky people will have tons of transportation available within walking distance. Hopefully retail will be a big component of the transportation station.

[thelakelander]

I'm not too concerned above the shift of this one "block" of Davis Street, slightly to the east. From a historical perspective, Water Street was a part of the train station's railyard and this "block" of Davis was cut off from the rest of LaVilla by the old FEC freight depot super block between Lee and Jefferson Streets. So instead of being used as street, it was a truck loading area for the back of warehouses and factories. Although land was originally platted for a connection between Bay and Forsyth, what was actually built was a pedestrian bridge over the freight depot's railyard.








The old FEC depot's railyard between Bay and Forsyth can be seen in this 1970s aerial of downtown Jax.

Looking at the Vestcor site plan, we're probably talking about a 100' shift of that section of street to the east. I wouldn't classify +450 linear feet as super block. That's shorter than the traditional blocks in Riverside and Springfield. IMO, add in a sidewalk on the new portion and call it day.



If they get the tax credits they seek, it appears to be a great project for a desolate area of downtown.

[Steve]

Agreed....IF that is an actual street with sidewalks.

[Kerry]

Not only should they not close this section, but the block between Bay and Forsyth should be put in to complete the local grid.

[Steve]

^Private Property:(

I agree it should be there though.

[Jax-Nole]

Assuming that section of South Davis St. is closed and removed for this construction, does that mean that the road north of Forsyth would have to be changed from North Davis St. to just Davis St.? As far as I can tell this is the only block of South Davis Street (or just Davis St depending on the map), then it skips the block between Bay and Forsyth before starting again as North Davis Street.

[Steve]

I think it would be easier to not rename it. At some point, it would be great to put that back together.

The Block between Bay and Forsyth was removed so Barnett (no relation to Barnett Bank, now known as Interline Brands) could build an office. Terrible site plan for that block.