Tesla reveals the "affordable" electric

[spuwho]

The point I was making is that the pollution generated in support of production and operation will never be made up by the economics of the vehicle itself.

I asked a Toyota engineer if the last gen Prius was carbon neutral and the answer was no.

At a conference a PhD was speaking on alternative energy sources and he noted that it takes a Prius 42 years to make up for the carbon required to produce it.

I agree that nuke sources, hydro, solar, fuel cell will reduce the footprint, but we are still a long way before EV's will bring a net benefit.

Selling 300,000 Teslas will expose some of those external issues that are not visible today.

[Sonic101]

And don't forget that Tesla isn't the only one who's making a large factory in NV. I have my (serious) doubts about Faraday Future, but they are moving ahead:

http://jalopnik.com/luxury-resort-or-automotive-factory-1770860730

The car looks great except for the nose.  Reminds me of The Matrix when Agent Smith makes Neo's mouth disappear.... 

Hahahaha... Now that I've seen it.

I never really thought about it, but I guess electric motors don't need a lot of forced air to run.

Yup yup yup, they'll still need some kinda of grill or air ducts for the A/C system and any liquid cooled components like the transmission or electric motors, but those aren't putting out the massive amount of heat an ICE does.

The point I was making is that the pollution generated in support of production and operation will never be made up by the economics of the vehicle itself.

I asked a Toyota engineer if the last gen Prius was carbon neutral and the answer was no.

At a conference a PhD was speaking on alternative energy sources and he noted that it takes a Prius 42 years to make up for the carbon required to produce it.

I agree that nuke sources, hydro, solar, fuel cell will reduce the footprint, but we are still a long way before EV's will bring a net benefit.

Selling 300,000 Teslas will expose some of those external issues that are not visible today.

+1

I also think that the poorer countries are gonna need a lot of help and investment to reach that point, or even to get on the US's level.

[spuwho]

I stand corrected on the ozone output of the electric motors. It is zero.

However, Teslas and EV's do emit ozone from the battery charging/regeneration system. But the amounts are less an issue than the use of HFC-134 refrigerant for the AC/battery cooling system.

[Sonic101]

I stand corrected on the ozone output of the electric motors. It is zero.

However, Teslas and EV's do emit ozone from the battery charging/regeneration system. But the amounts are less an issue than the use of HFC-134 refrigerant for the AC/battery cooling system.

Manufacturers don't use HFC-134a anymore, they've moved on to HFO-1234yf.    R-134a replaced Freon (R-12) because of its ozone destruction. 134a is being phased out because it is over 1,000 times more powerful than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.

Though there are no federal regulations banning the use of 134a, the EPA offers fuel economy credits to automakers who use 1234yf, thus incentivizing its adoption. This is also why you can still buy R-134a at the auto parts store for older vehicles.

[spuwho]

I stand corrected on the ozone output of the electric motors. It is zero.

However, Teslas and EV's do emit ozone from the battery charging/regeneration system. But the amounts are less an issue than the use of HFC-134 refrigerant for the AC/battery cooling system.

Manufacturers don't use HFC-134a anymore, they've moved on to HFO-1234yf.    R-134a replaced Freon (R-12) because of its ozone destruction. 134a is being phased out because it is over 1,000 times more powerful than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.

Though there are no federal regulations banning the use of 134a, the EPA offers fuel economy credits to automakers who use 1234yf, thus incentivizing its adoption. This is also why you can still buy R-134a at the auto parts store for older vehicles.

I had read that DuPont had come out with the yf formulation, but it only has 90% of the capacity of 134. It wasn't clear who/when the migration had started or was complete.

[ChriswUfGator]

I stand corrected on the ozone output of the electric motors. It is zero.

However, Teslas and EV's do emit ozone from the battery charging/regeneration system. But the amounts are less an issue than the use of HFC-134 refrigerant for the AC/battery cooling system.

Manufacturers don't use HFC-134a anymore, they've moved on to HFO-1234yf.    R-134a replaced Freon (R-12) because of its ozone destruction. 134a is being phased out because it is over 1,000 times more powerful than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.

Though there are no federal regulations banning the use of 134a, the EPA offers fuel economy credits to automakers who use 1234yf, thus incentivizing its adoption. This is also why you can still buy R-134a at the auto parts store for older vehicles.

I had read that DuPont had come out with the yf formulation, but it only has 90% of the capacity of 134. It wasn't clear who/when the migration had started or was complete.

Almost invariably the migrations start right about the time dupont's prior refrigerant loses patent protection and enough competitors have tooled up to produce it that it is seriously cutting into their sales. Then magically they realize how much better another substance they've patented is for the ozone layer and go running to the EPA to ban their own former product.