Developer Jeff Morr delays Jacksonville plans pending the HRO

[spuwho]

I dont think he said he hated LGBT people.

He said there isnt any connection between civic growth initiatives and HRO's and he is calling it out.

Just because he doesnt see the link doesnt make him a hater.

[UNFurbanist]

^ Fair enough. Maybe I shouldn't have jumped to that but I really just can't fathom why someone would be against this if they don't distinctly dislike the community. Especially since it does affect economics. Again, it isn't everything but it is important.

[spuwho]

RG says we should enforce the existing laws for discrimination when working with LGBT related situations.

Who here can show case law that reflects that there was a successful discrimination case brought by a LGBT claimant against an employer or business?

I have heard the "enforce the current" as a counter to the HRO from the Mayor and others.

All I ask is show me the case law where this was successful.

[southsider1015]

RG says we should enforce the existing laws for discrimination when working with LGBT related situations.

Who here can show case law that reflects that there was a successful discrimination case brought by a LGBT claimant against an employer or business?

I have heard the "enforce the current" as a counter to the HRO from the Mayor and others.

All I ask is show me the case law where this was successful.

If there is no case law, why isn't there any?  Is discrimination not happening then?  If truely were happening, why is it taking city ordinance legislation, rather than state/federal legislation to get the job done?

I'm honestly looking for answers here.  I'm not LGBT, I don't support the lifestyle, but it's not my place to tell others how to live.  I understand business, I'm a hiring manager, and I do live in Duval County.

[southsider1015]

In addition, for anyone in support of the HRO, please explain the opposing opinion, and do your best to keep it to the facts, and not sling mud. 

I find that when the the opposing view is understood and explained from the other side, respect, insight, and clarity can help others form their own opinion.  Right now, all I can gather from supporters of the HRO is that the opposers "dislike their city', or " don't support businesses", or anti-LGBT.  I don't agree with something just because I can't disagree with it.  That's not good policy or legislation.
 

[vicupstate]

If there is no case law, why isn't there any?  Is discrimination not happening then?  If truely were happening, why is it taking city ordinance legislation, rather than state/federal legislation to get the job done?

There is no case law because this is NO LAW AGAINST it (discriminating).   If there were a Federal Law or a State Law then the city ordinance would not be needed, and no one would be asking for it.   

[spuwho]

California judge rules that harassment of lesbians at a university violates Title X rules on sexual discrimination.

http://www.advocate.com/sports/2015/12/21/judge-rules-sex-discrimination-includes-sexual-orientation-historic-title-ix-case

[Charles Hunter]

From attending the "Listening Sessions" and City Council meetings, it seems the primary (loudest) opposition is along the lines of "Being LGBT is against God's law, and so it must be kept against civil law.  Passing the amendment to the HRO would not allow us Religious People to refuse service to those whose lifestyle we don't agree with, and therefore impinges on our religious rights."

Of course, the Bible also says that divorce is sinful. Do these folks want to discriminate against divorced people?  Oh, wait, the laws already prohibit discrimination based on "marital status".

[Tacachale]

RG says we should enforce the existing laws for discrimination when working with LGBT related situations.

Who here can show case law that reflects that there was a successful discrimination case brought by a LGBT claimant against an employer or business?

I have heard the "enforce the current" as a counter to the HRO from the Mayor and others.

All I ask is show me the case law where this was successful.

If there is no case law, why isn't there any?  Is discrimination not happening then?  If truely were happening, why is it taking city ordinance legislation, rather than state/federal legislation to get the job done?

I'm honestly looking for answers here.  I'm not LGBT, I don't support the lifestyle, but it's not my place to tell others how to live.  I understand business, I'm a hiring manager, and I do live in Duval County.

I'll try to answer this as a sincerely asked question.

State and federal legislation is a longer term goal, but it's far more difficult to get items like this through the Florida legislature and Congress than through a City Council vote. Right now the focus is on attainable goals - start local. It's never gone to trial because right now there's no real law protecting LGBT people at any level. If it's not illegal for a boss to fire you for being gay, there's no benefit to putting the effort and resources to sue them over it. The solution is just to update the law.

Your second comment, I think, speaks to one of the key misunderstandings between the two sides in this discussion. This isn't a "lifestyle" to be supported or not supported. It's the way folks are born. We might as well speak of the "redhead lifestyle" or the "tall lifestyle".

In addition, for anyone in support of the HRO, please explain the opposing opinion, and do your best to keep it to the facts, and not sling mud. 

I find that when the the opposing view is understood and explained from the other side, respect, insight, and clarity can help others form their own opinion.  Right now, all I can gather from supporters of the HRO is that the opposers "dislike their city', or " don't support businesses", or anti-LGBT.  I don't agree with something just because I can't disagree with it.  That's not good policy or legislation.
 

Interesting thought exercise. I'd say that the majority of good-faith HRO opponents see the ordinance as at best an an unnecessary regulation, or else a measure that will restrict the ability of business owners to practice their religious beliefs when operating their business as it relates to LGBT employees, customers, residents, etc. Others see this as a battle in the culture war. Some are genuinely and openly anti-LGBT, including some of the leading voices of the movement.

Whether one sees this as "anti-LGBT" depends on their own feelings about LGBT issues. From my perspective it is - it's advocating a something that keeps LGBT citizens in a disadvantaged position - though I try to remember that not all people who hold these positions consider themselves anti-gay or believe that their position is damaging to their LGBT neighbors. At a point, however, the intention behind a position doesn't outweigh the effect it has; it's easy to see how genuinely decent, well intentioned people could have fallen into supporting "separate but equal", for example; their intentions don't change the fact that it was a damaging system for African Americans.

[southsider1015]

Living as a hetrosexual is just as much as a homosexual lifestyle.  When hetrosexuals decide to wed, purchase a house, raise a family (or decide against), pay taxes, etc.  These are lifestyles.  Living single is a lifestyle.  One's sexuality (or asexuality) is a big part lifestyle. Whether its nurture or nature, there's choices to be made.  Not here to argue right or wrong.  Just pointing out that there's also a lifestyle we're talking about, not just a "born this way" simplicity. 

This issue is very different from race and sex.  Very different implications, results, unintended consequences.  Trying to make comparisons to support the cause do not work in my book.

[UNFurbanist]

Living as a hetrosexual is just as much as a homosexual lifestyle.  When hetrosexuals decide to wed, purchase a house, raise a family (or decide against), pay taxes, etc.  These are lifestyles.  Living single is a lifestyle.  One's sexuality (or asexuality) is a big part lifestyle. Whether its nurture or nature, there's choices to be made.  Not here to argue right or wrong.  Just pointing out that there's also a lifestyle we're talking about, not just a "born this way" simplicity. 

This issue is very different from race and sex.  Very different implications, results, unintended consequences.  Trying to make comparisons to support the cause do not work in my book.

So you're telling me you choose to be straight in the same way you choose to pay your taxes? That sounds like you're not really enjoying it lol! For me at least I never just decided to be straight one day, I just am, so I don't really get what you're trying to say either. 

[obie1]

Living as a hetrosexual is just as much as a homosexual lifestyle.  When hetrosexuals decide to wed, purchase a house, raise a family (or decide against), pay taxes, etc.  These are lifestyles.  Living single is a lifestyle.  One's sexuality (or asexuality) is a big part lifestyle. Whether its nurture or nature, there's choices to be made.  Not here to argue right or wrong.  Just pointing out that there's also a lifestyle we're talking about, not just a "born this way" simplicity. 

This issue is very different from race and sex.  Very different implications, results, unintended consequences.  Trying to make comparisons to support the cause do not work in my book.

And you are a hiring manager, so how you feel about an LGBT person's "lifestyle" (wtf) directly effects whether or not that person is hired or how they are ranked in relation to other potential hires.

hmmmmmm yeaaaah no need for legislation here lofl

[southsider1015]

I hire based on qualifications to get the job done, not sexual preference or lifestyle choices, if this group prefer to keep them seperate.  Since it's not even a question I can ask of candidates (it's against the law, I believe), it never comes up.  I'm fully aware that my business has members of the LGBT community, and it doesn't affect their job performance.  When someone can't perform, they are fired; simple enough right? 

You can demonize me all you want; I came looking for answers, share some opinions,  and finally touched a nerve. 

[southsider1015]

Also, I meant combine finances and pay taxes together.  As in a single household. 

[whyisjohngalt]

I hire based on qualifications to get the job done, not sexual preference or lifestyle choices, if this group prefer to keep them seperate.

This group does keep them separate.