Developer Jeff Morr delays Jacksonville plans pending the HRO

[spuwho]

Non-passage of some gay HRO isn't stopping any development in Jacksonville. Nice P.R. try, though.

Sorry, but I'm going to trust Morr's word on Morr's developments, and he's pretty clear on the subject.

Pushing away *any* opportunity over something as simple as basic human rights coverage is just silly.

I don't think RG was calling Morr a liar. He was saying development will continue in Jacksonville, HRO or no HRO.

Every developer has to make decisions that are best for their operation. If Morr has an HRO on his check off list for good business then that is his prerogative.

My take is that if you want to effect social change, you embrace the community completely and convince from within as opposed to dangling "what could be" in front of peoples faces to change their mind.

I still think there is room for an amended HRO, but it seems its this "all or nothing" approach that benefits no one at all.

This is where all of the upper end money is, unfortunately spuwho. 

Apparently the impulse to force parents with young boys into a bathroom next to men in dresses, transwomen and gender fluid people in the name of hating LGBT people is also a way to cheapen the labor demand and cut the city off from investment.

I don't like the army of haters anymore than you do, believe me.

But if it is such a good business for Morr to promote this, why can't he be the pioneer and actually build a building that shows Jacksonville how it works and that its not as bad as the haters say?

People talk about how the private sector will embrace it if it make good business sense, so by extension, if Morr thinks its good business sense to accommodate the HRO community, why not show us?  Why does he need an HRO in place to design a building that has full accommodation and hangs a shingle to the world that says "pro-HRO business is welcome here"

If there really is money to be made, I say let him have at it and show everyone how its done.

[spuwho]

Non-passage of some gay HRO isn't stopping any development in Jacksonville. Nice P.R. try, though.

Sorry, but I'm going to trust Morr's word on Morr's developments, and he's pretty clear on the subject.

Pushing away *any* opportunity over something as simple as basic human rights coverage is just silly.

I don't think RG was calling Morr a liar. He was saying development will continue in Jacksonville, HRO or no HRO.

Every developer has to make decisions that are best for their operation. If Morr has an HRO on his check off list for good business then that is his prerogative.

My take is that if you want to effect social change, you embrace the community completely and convince from within as opposed to dangling "what could be" in front of peoples faces to change their mind.

I still think there is room for an amended HRO, but it seems its this "all or nothing" approach that benefits no one at all.

This is where all of the upper end money is, unfortunately spuwho. 

Apparently the impulse to force parents with young boys into a bathroom next to men in dresses, transwomen and gender fluid people in the name of hating LGBT people is also a way to cheapen the labor demand and cut the city off from investment.

I don't like the army of haters anymore than you do, believe me.

But if it is such a good business for Morr to promote this, why can't he be the pioneer and actually build a building that shows Jacksonville how it works and that its not as bad as the haters say?

People talk about how the private sector will embrace it if it make good business sense, so by extension, if Morr thinks its good business sense to accommodate the HRO community, why not show us?  Why does he need an HRO in place to design a building that has full accommodation and hangs a shingle to the world that says "pro-HRO business is welcome here"

If there really is money to be made, I say let him have at it and show everyone how its done.

Because he doesn't have to, I suppose.

And why put another dime into a market whose government is determined to drive your potential market away?

Why didn't the blue chips build big buildings in Montgomery Alabama to prove a point about how tolerance works after they went segregationist?

Seems kind of obvious.

He doesn't have to put a dime here. It's his dough. I agree.

My suggestion was merely an extension of my idea of embracing from within instead of from the outside.

You are right, why didn't we embrace Montgomery?  Different way of thinking then, effecting social change through business practices was considered odd at the time. (not any more)

If Morr thinks a non-HRO town increases his risk, I get it.

[southsider1015]

Can someone please explain the connection between HRO/LGBT and high end development money? Does the LGBT community have an enormous base of money to spend, that only an HRO would unleash here?

Why did the Chamber back the HRO movement? 

I just can't seem to see the connection here. 

[Spitfire]

Can someone please explain the connection between HRO/LGBT and high end development money? Does the LGBT community have an enormous base of money to spend, that only an HRO would unleash here?

Why did the Chamber back the HRO movement? 

I just can't seem to see the connection here.

Company by-laws, even if they include protections for LGBT, stop once their employees leave the company premises. Companies cannot guarantee that their LGBT employees will not be targeted by discrimination once they go home or if they go out to any business in Jacksonville.

It's the same for military members, as well. The Pentagon added sexual orientation to the Military's Equal Opportunity Policy last year, but the buck stops once military members leave either base.

[Bridges]

Can someone please explain the connection between HRO/LGBT and high end development money? Does the LGBT community have an enormous base of money to spend, that only an HRO would unleash here?

Why did the Chamber back the HRO movement? 

I just can't seem to see the connection here. 

In addition to what Spitfire said, most companies want to be able to select the best employees from the largest pool.  If they can't attract top talent because that talent leaves due to harassment, or that talent would never move to Jacksonville to accept that job, then that is a problem for the company. 

The point is there are other cities where this simply would not be a problem for the company.  So why would they even put up with it in Jacksonville.  For all the Republican Governors and Mayors talking point of "We're Open For Business", they sure like to put barriers between them and business. 

[thelakelander]

Great comment, Bridges.

[Tacachale]

^Yes, spot on.

Morr is a guy who's already "within". He's got two properties here. What he's saying is that he's not doing any more until the HRO issue is settled. Sure, other development will continue, but not his. The point is, why should we accept our city pushing away *any* development at all? Especially on something so basic that it's already been done in virtually every other city of our size.

Historically, most of Jacksonville's leaders have worked to move past the city's backward image. When our leaders won't even do that much, it's not surprising to hear stories like this.

That said, the HRO definitely isn't over. It's a matter of finding something that can pass while avoiding an embarrassing and divisive referendum.

[southsider1015]

I get not wanting to limit the talent pool for the labor force.

But is there really a strong correlation between LGBT and a highly skilled labor force demanding high paying jobs? What type of businesses are we even talking about?  I personally don't associate LGBT with money (having lots of it or none) or education; its just a none factor for me. 

I don't know the "facts", I just know my personal experiences.  I just don't see it. Since when did business care about LGBT?  I've never seen it come up, either in a positive or negative way.

I respect the fact that the LGBT community wants an HRO, but to make this correlation is still far reaching, IMHO.

Please enlighten me.

[Tacachale]

I get not wanting to limit the talent pool for the labor force.

But is there really a strong correlation between LGBT and a highly skilled labor force demanding high paying jobs? What type of businesses are we even talking about?  I personally don't associate LGBT with money (having lots of it or none) or education; its just a none factor for me. 

I don't know the "facts", I just know my personal experiences.  I just don't see it. Since when did business care about LGBT?  I've never seen it come up, either in a positive or negative way.

I respect the fact that the LGBT community wants an HRO, but to make this correlation is still far reaching, IMHO.

Please enlighten me.

It doesn't matter if there's a direct correlation between being LGBT and money. A certain percentage of the population is LGBT, meaning a certain percentage of people in any given employment pool are LGBT. Say 5%. Why risk alienating 5% of the pool? Especially over an ordinance so basic that virtually every city our size has one?

We've had businesses lose hires over this issue - I've personally seen it happen at UNF. We've seen business decide not to locate here over this issue. Now we have a developer pulling back investment over this issue. Why make things harder on ourselves?

[RattlerGator]

Can someone please explain the connection between HRO/LGBT and high end development money? Does the LGBT community have an enormous base of money to spend, that only an HRO would unleash here?

Why did the Chamber back the HRO movement? 

I just can't seem to see the connection here.

It is bullshit of the first order, pure and simple. Most rational people get this, many partisans and well-intentioned people don't.

Okay. No big deal.

But there is no connection. Houston is suffering GREATLY, I'm sure. People all over the South are suffering GREATLY, I'm sure -- that's why the in-population flow continues all over the South.

You don't need special laws for this, you need to enforce the laws on the books. This is all about an agenda and these Orwellian partisans have bullied well-intentioned people into believing they are somehow "haters" if they don't support *this* bullying effort.

Bullshit.

[RattlerGator]

I don't think RG was calling Morr a liar. He was saying development will continue in Jacksonville, HRO or no HRO.

Every developer has to make decisions that are best for their operation. If Morr has an HRO on his check off list for good business then that is his prerogative.

My take is that if you want to effect social change, you embrace the community completely and convince from within as opposed to dangling "what could be" in front of peoples faces to change their mind.

I still think there is room for an amended HRO, but it seems its this "all or nothing" approach that benefits no one at all.

Thank you for recognizing the obvious, spuwho. I'm not calling him a liar, I'm recognizing him as an obvious partisan. Not that hard, not that big of a deal.

But I am definitely saying I don't believe the assertion that Jacksonville will somehow be harmed by not passing this fought-for amendment. This crazy blowback represented by Donald Trump is a direct result of people being absolutely sick and tired of being lectured to, especially lectured to with nonsense.

[Tacachale]

Can someone please explain the connection between HRO/LGBT and high end development money? Does the LGBT community have an enormous base of money to spend, that only an HRO would unleash here?

Why did the Chamber back the HRO movement? 

I just can't seem to see the connection here.

It is bullshit of the first order, pure and simple. Most rational people get this, many partisans and well-intentioned people don't.

Okay. No big deal.

But there is no connection. Houston is suffering GREATLY, I'm sure. People all over the South are suffering GREATLY, I'm sure -- that's why the in-population flow continues all over the South.

You don't need special laws for this, you need to enforce the laws on the books. This is all about an agenda and these Orwellian partisans have bullied well-intentioned people into believing they are somehow "haters" if they don't support *this* bullying effort.

Bullshit.

I'm going to guess three things: you aren't LGBT, you aren't a business owner, and you don't live in Duval County.

[Bridges]

I guess if you want to just look solely at Morr you could say there are ulterior motives.  But why would the Jax Chamber endorse it if it wasn't a pro-business move?  They aren't really the beacon of liberalism. 

On NPR this morning they interviewed Sydney Finkelstein about his new book Superbosses: How Exceptional Leaders Master the Flow of Talent.  In it he talks about great leaders and managers.  Pioneers who tapped new and potential talent.  He talks about Bill Walsh recognizing that Black coaches weren't getting enough chances, so he started a fellowship program for minority coaches so that he could tap into it. 

Beyond people who are actually LGBT, you have people who see the tone of the conversation in Jacksonville, or see the discriminatory practices, and think that this is a city that will be held back and won't consider moving here.  So while the circle of just LGBT members may be small, a larger circle of people are affected.

If you look at this problem beyond a moral duty, you can see the same issues holding Jacksonville back that we see in other aspects around the city.  Truth is that this is a competitive global marketplace.  And in a global marketplace QOL is important not only to business owners, but the employees they look to hire.  When barriers to entry are put up around downtown, or public transportation is a problem, businesses look to other cities where there aren't these issues.  We see our peer cities passing us in all other aspects, and now we have given another reason to the growing list of why we are inferior. 

[UNFurbanist]

Can someone please explain the connection between HRO/LGBT and high end development money? Does the LGBT community have an enormous base of money to spend, that only an HRO would unleash here?

Why did the Chamber back the HRO movement? 

I just can't seem to see the connection here.

It is bullshit of the first order, pure and simple. Most rational people get this, many partisans and well-intentioned people don't.

Okay. No big deal.

But there is no connection. Houston is suffering GREATLY, I'm sure. People all over the South are suffering GREATLY, I'm sure -- that's why the in-population flow continues all over the South.

You don't need special laws for this, you need to enforce the laws on the books. This is all about an agenda and these Orwellian partisans have bullied well-intentioned people into believing they are somehow "haters" if they don't support *this* bullying effort.

Bullshit.

I've had discussions with both some who work at the chamber and economics professors at UNF who have explicitly told me that Jax has lost bids for corporations moving here specifically because we do not have an expanded HRO. Plain and simple. And trust me, they are no liberals. City Councilman Aaron Bowman is also another example with military and corporate experience who is fighting for this. UNF is contracted to do basically all of the impact studies for the city so I am actually taking an urban economics class right now with a professor who has and is currently working on a few projects. He's the associate dean of the business college and he says the same thing!

It's bad for business, its bad for human rights so why fight it? You hate LGBT people, fine. But not allowing them basic human protections is not going to make them "find jesus" or "change their ways". Just let them be.

In regards to Houston, they had an expanded HRO but recently repealed it once it became a bathroom bill. And there are signs that the latest fiasco there is leading some to question whether to invest more or not. It isn't the end-all be-all, I'll admit that, but it is a deterrent and in a city like Jax can we really afford any deterrents?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

It's really a simple issue.  When you're confused why this is an issue, instead of reading LGBT, substitute:  African American, Jewish, female or any number of words that describe people who have laws in place to prevent discrimination. 

Seriously... If you're only argument is going to be Why bother? Then the only counter should have to be Why Not?