Downtown Gamechanger

[Bill Hoff]

The imaginary borders of the historic district and the rest of SPR and surrounding neighborhoods has caused more damage than not,

I believe I understand the intention of the statement, along the lines of other close by neighborhoods being stigmatized because they aren't apart of the more favored historic districts. But, the historic district status of Riverside, Avondale & Springfield have been integral to their revitalization. So successful, that it may be beneficial to the surrounding communities to have those boundaries expanded, eventually. One only has to look at the recent Jessie B Dupont Block by Block study to see how the 'imaginary' borders of Jacksonville's historic districts are real in a variety of ways, and a huge positive.

If anyone ever has a chance to sit down with local historians (Crooks, Wood, etc), or review literature from the National Trust about the community benefits of historic districts, take it.

[ronchamblin]

Your "if I had been there" ideas make sense SD.  If one is to suggest that the abandonment of the core ... and the creation of excess vacancies and desolation within, was not inevitable, and that certain policies and legislation could have prevented the exodus, then it follows that one might assign blame to certain individuals or groups in place at the time.

Who was ... is ... responsible for the analysis and solution of this kind of problem?  The mayor?  The city council members?  Perhaps individuals intimately connected with both the FBC and the city?  If these individuals or positions were responsible and at fault back then, can we assume that the same individuals or positions are responsible for continued core desolation now ... decades following? 

Who's in charge?  Should the "community" simply accept continued floating in good and bad economies, accepting mediocrity, consuming whatever candy we can find for our own personal comfort and gain ... without aggressively devising a solution to a problem long causing the suffering of many in our city?  Certainly the average citizen cannot be held responsible for any error or lack of legislation or policies needed to encourage or force core revitalization.

Only the mayor, the city council members, the various groups formed for the purpose of revitalization, and others in positions of influence, can apply enough force, by way of legislation and policies so as to destroy the momentum of desolation and stagnation in the core.  These individuals are elected and appointed to serve all citizens ... to solve the core problem by wise contemplation of realities surrounding its predicament, and then to engage creative and bold legislation and policies for solution.  Our elected officials exist ... are elected for the purpose of doing ... for the mass of citizens what the individual citizen cannot do alone.

[ronchamblin]

An additional note SD ... your last post hinted at the parts played by race and religion in the decisions and policies that, years ago, encouraged the abandonment, and infrastructural destruction, of the core.  The sometimes overt, sometimes subtle, pressures of race and religion are still with us today. 

[RattlerGator]

While Stephen occasionally keeps looking backward and lapsing into what appears to be a blame game, while also still fixating curiously on the school that is *not* Florida State University in Jacksonville but, rather, the local community college -- 90% of their annual degrees awarded are not Bachelor's degrees, and yes: that matters! -- now seems like a good time to re-post a slightly modified version of my earlier comment about UNF downtown. Luckily, we're now seeing the first initial indication that SOMEONE at UNF (thank you, Vulcan Materials & Coggin College of Business) is giving serious thought to entrepreneurial creativity from our local state university in Center City:

Undergrads are the key. Graduate students would be good too but you've got to have undergrads in the mix, bigtime.

Number of UNF Majors by College (these are approximate numbers):

Brooks College of Health   
   2,750

Coggin College of Business   
   2,850

College of Arts & Sciences   
   6,700

College of Computing, Engineering, & Construction   
   1,600

College of Education & Human Services   
   1,650

So, Arts & Sciences is their biggest college and these are their component departments:

*Art and Design*
Biology
Chemistry
Communication
*Criminology and Criminal Justice*
English
History
Languages, Literatures and Cultures
Mathematics and Statistics
Music 
Philosophy
Physics
*Political Science and Public Administration*
Psychology
*Sociology, Anthropology and Social Work*

I placed stars next to the Arts & Sciences departments that I suspect could make creative use of a presence in the urban core but, minimally, all UNF has to do is build a big dorm downtown that students have a choice of using as a housing option. That starts the ball rolling.

Personally, it is probably the Coggin College of Business that could really be a gamechanger downtown.

Whatever the case, UNF (given that it has matured as a university) should have an absolutely major presence downtown. Shad Khan and Rummell, both, should be looking at creative ways to bring them into their development mix. UNF has done a good job of not doing growth simply for the sake of growth but they can and should grow more and they should do so, in part, downtown.

Coggin College of Business can be the nexus. But as their Dean indicated, all programs on campus could participate with this anticipated facility just north of the old 20th Street Expressway -- especially the starred programs I listed in their College of Arts and Sciences -- and other College's and department's may be offered a range of other structures in Center City now that an example is being set.

In the 2025 State University System Strategic Plan, our public universities are changed with the duties, in part, to:

[1] Transform and revitalize Florida's economy and society through research, creativity, discovery, and innovation; and,

[2] Deliver knowledge to advance the health, welfare, cultural enrichment, and economy through community and business engagement and service.

Faster, please, UNF.

More, please, UNF.

[whyisjohngalt]

rattler gator, why not stick to the sports forums, where posting stupid things is the norm?

His post isn't stupid and at least offers some insight.  Why respond so bitterly?  You even mentioned like 5 posts before that a university driving downtown decisions is a step in the right direction.  They might not be promoting your specific agenda but at least there's has gained some traction in the same direction.

[RattlerGator]

rattler gator, why not stick to the sports forums, where posting stupid things is the norm?

The juvenile totalitarian in you Stephen, it's so ugly. But I do forgive you. Maybe that Florida State University in Jacksonville thing -- some might call that genuinely stupid -- is more telling than I realized.

[ronchamblin]

Be back soon to engage this very interesting subject SD.  Been busy at stores 'n stuff.

[ronchamblin]

Your referenced articles, SD, do encourage a more forgiving approach to those who first engaged the early urban decline and sprawl issues, as they were, after all, pioneers, engaging unfamiliar dynamics. 

But time has passed.  Most who've inherited the responsibility for addressing urban issues ... as in facilitating the achievement of core vibrancy and infill ... have lived with the problem of relative core stagnation for many years.  Time for contemplation, measurement, study, and experiment has been generous.  It is time for good and measured focus, analysis, and finally, the correct decisions to ensure solid progress toward the desired threshold of core energy ... a threshold, after which the core will develop by its own energy at an accelerated rate.  Post-threshold characteristics, forced into the core by our creativity, focus, wisdom, sacrifice, and determination ... will be attractive to potential residents and businesses, and therefore will draw and entice both entities into the core, not only from the suburbs, but from other cities.     

We are fortunate in having the talented and determined individuals who have worked hard, who have expended much time and money to push the few core businesses to success in spite of the lack of a sufficient core consumer base.  We are fortunate also to have the creative individuals who've pushed to success projects in the arts and culture, as without these efforts in the arts, we would be so much further from our destination. 
 
The recent article in Folio emphasized the importance of the arts in the urban core.  Tony has been a great positive in the revitalization process.  However, other creative and giving individuals have also had great positive impact upon efforts to encourage a self-sustaining vibrancy to the core.

If respectable progress is to be made on the journey to mature revitalization and core infill, the accomplishments in the arts must be supplemented with a significant, permanent, population infusion -- in the form of residents, workers, and businesses -- so that consumers, suburbanites, and tourists will follow.  Core real estate infill and development will follow ... riding the surge of energy, which is the essence of a post-threshold era.

What is an urban renewal or a revitalization?  Both terms imply a journey from an existing, to a future condition.  And because the future condition is thought by most reasonable individuals to offer great rewards to all citizens of the middle and lower classes -- not only rewards to wealthy individuals building expensive private Disneyesk monuments of immortality for themselves -- most sensible tax payers desire a journey to it.   

Whereas the trickle down idea associated with the expensive, carelessly concepted projects, are occasionally viable, positively impacting without fail the population majority with jobs and a strong local economy, too many seem to fail, surviving into mediocrity until the next billionaire rebuilds to attempt his unique kind of immortality.  Although some of these pie in the sky projects prove successful, too often they are discovered to be bullshit in essence.  In any case, the very fact, that over decades the journey has not been successfully completed, implies that a problem exists, and persists ... unsolved.

If we suggest or suspect that it is possible to solve the problem, then we might wonder how much time should be spent upon it in order to arrive at the opinion that we have failed.  I suggest that enough time has passed, so that we can believe that we have indeed failed ... and are failing still.   

The recognition of this failure is exciting, as most of us love the challenge of solving problems.  Whereas most problems are somewhat simple ... call them level one problems ... the solutions are basically simple, requiring only momentary focus to achieve solution.

But some problems are not simple, and appear initially so complex that the entire scenario offers only a fog to the mind, with no clear direction to solution.  These complex problems require contemplation ... mental exercises in possibilities before one can begin perceiving the hidden simplicities within ... simplicities which must be understood before efficient problem solving can proceed ... simplicities without which, any solution is achieved only via trial and error, and luck, taking much more time than is desirable.  Have we had enough of trial and error?

We have not discovered, and forced action upon, the perhaps four or five fundamental causes of our obvious failure to progress effectively to the end of our journey.  We too often give attention to the consequences of the root causes or issues, and fail to resolve the root causes.  We have focused upon the peripheral, less significant issues, which of course are somewhat necessary, while avoiding the most potent; that is, the issues that, if confronted, would produce the much needed boosts down the road to a sustaining vibrancy.   

(to be continued ...be back soon) 

[ronchamblin]

Before engaging ideas about a structured approach to efforts at revitalization ...a short digression about taxes.  Because any revitalization journey involves the expenditure of local tax revenue, one might inquire as to what factors most influence the citizen's willingness to pay, and even to accept temporary increases ... perhaps with ultimate approval to spend on projects toward core enhancement.  Surely, revitalization will involve the expenditure of tax revenues collected from the entire county.  Confidence in those who spend tax revenue collected from hard working citizens is necessary for progress toward a revitalized core.  Who wants to pay money to any entity or individual who wastes it, or doesn't know how to best spend it?   

Just as many of us cringe at the idea of being forced to pay heavy federal taxes to support the unnecessary wars instigated and encouraged by an oligarchic clique ... which is our actual government ...  to ensure maintenance of their power and massage their obsession with greed, the local citizen cringes at the idea of paying taxes when the use of revenue is carelessly wasted in projects ultimately found to have been done in ignorance or haste or, more unforgiving, if done to satisfy an individual, a group, or an institution such as a church or corporation .... all at the expense of the wellbeing of the majority of citizens.  Governments exist ... city councils exist ... mayors exist ...  to arrive at decisions that ultimately satisfy the genuine needs of "all" the citizens, who have actually hired them.

In this economy ... in the predicament endured by our community regarding the stagnation of the core, with the resultant huge local unemployment problem .... there is no room for error or careless experiment.  Our approach, if we are to succeed, must be a structured one, with a determination to discover the fundamental issues affecting progress.

(must get to work ... to be continued)

[JaxNole]

The imaginary borders of the historic district and the rest of SPR and surrounding neighborhoods has caused more damage than not,

I believe I understand the intention of the statement, along the lines of other close by neighborhoods being stigmatized because they aren't apart of the more favored historic districts. But, the historic district status of Riverside, Avondale & Springfield have been integral to their revitalization. So successful, that it may be beneficial to the surrounding communities to have those boundaries expanded, eventually. One only has to look at the recent Jessie B Dupont Block by Block study to see how the 'imaginary' borders of Jacksonville's historic districts are real in a variety of ways, and a huge positive.

If anyone ever has a chance to sit down with local historians (Crooks, Wood, etc), or review literature from the National Trust about the community benefits of historic districts, take it.

Bill, dare I say I agree with you on this issue? What has happened to the world?

I recall shortly after closing on our house asking numerous leaders and through different channels what plans Historic Springfield had for integrating more with Eastside/Phoenix/Tallyrand, New Springfield, Brentwood, and Durkeeville. One response I received was, "The Eastside is invited to our CPAC meetings and sometimes some [residents] show up." The other responses were silence.

How long do you think we should continue waiting before we put boots on the ground and expand our view beyond our 1 square mile?

[ronchamblin]

Sierra Delta .... don't mean to be gone so long from this conversation.  And I appreciate your subtle invitation to continue it.  I indicated an intention to engage it further, with an attempt at sound ideas affecting probable best routes to solutions to our delayed progress in achieving real core vibrancy and infill ... especially in the north core.  I am not surprised to discover the complexities encountered, and am currently involved in sorting and relating ... measuring and weighing ... including and eliminating ... all the while discovering that what was thought to be isolated, is not ... what was thought to be insignificant, just might be, and what was thought to be significant, perhaps isn't.   

The project of attempting to make sense of it is quite fun, and I proceed between my seven day work schedule and finding the right state of mind.  I must arrive at ideas having a certain level of validity so that I am not laughed off the forum.  There is no rush I presume.  After all, we've engaged, to varying degrees, the project of revitalization for a few years.   I do not presume that what I might say will be of much consequence.  I only play with these things .. call them problems ... as it is quite fun.  In any case, I shall return soon.

[Bill Hoff]

The imaginary borders of the historic district and the rest of SPR and surrounding neighborhoods has caused more damage than not,

I believe I understand the intention of the statement, along the lines of other close by neighborhoods being stigmatized because they aren't apart of the more favored historic districts. But, the historic district status of Riverside, Avondale & Springfield have been integral to their revitalization. So successful, that it may be beneficial to the surrounding communities to have those boundaries expanded, eventually. One only has to look at the recent Jessie B Dupont Block by Block study to see how the 'imaginary' borders of Jacksonville's historic districts are real in a variety of ways, and a huge positive.

If anyone ever has a chance to sit down with local historians (Crooks, Wood, etc), or review literature from the National Trust about the community benefits of historic districts, take it.

Bill, dare I say I agree with you on this issue? What has happened to the world?

I recall shortly after closing on our house asking numerous leaders and through different channels what plans Historic Springfield had for integrating more with Eastside/Phoenix/Tallyrand, New Springfield, Brentwood, and Durkeeville. One response I received was, "The Eastside is invited to our CPAC meetings and sometimes some [residents] show up." The other responses were silence.

How long do you think we should continue waiting before we put boots on the ground and expand our view beyond our 1 square mile?

I'm not sure who you spoke to about your question of better connecting, but there's certainly more partnering going on between the Springfield historic district and it's surrounding neighborhoods than CPAC.

To your most recent question: I'm not sure who you mean by "we".

[strider]

The imaginary borders of the historic district and the rest of SPR and surrounding neighborhoods has caused more damage than not,

I believe I understand the intention of the statement, along the lines of other close by neighborhoods being stigmatized because they aren't apart of the more favored historic districts. But, the historic district status of Riverside, Avondale & Springfield have been integral to their revitalization. So successful, that it may be beneficial to the surrounding communities to have those boundaries expanded, eventually. One only has to look at the recent Jessie B Dupont Block by Block study to see how the 'imaginary' borders of Jacksonville's historic districts are real in a variety of ways, and a huge positive.

If anyone ever has a chance to sit down with local historians (Crooks, Wood, etc), or review literature from the National Trust about the community benefits of historic districts, take it.

Bill, dare I say I agree with you on this issue? What has happened to the world?

I recall shortly after closing on our house asking numerous leaders and through different channels what plans Historic Springfield had for integrating more with Eastside/Phoenix/Tallyrand, New Springfield, Brentwood, and Durkeeville. One response I received was, "The Eastside is invited to our CPAC meetings and sometimes some [residents] show up." The other responses were silence.

How long do you think we should continue waiting before we put boots on the ground and expand our view beyond our 1 square mile?

I'm not sure who you spoke to about your question of better connecting, but there's certainly more partnering going on between the Springfield historic district and it's surrounding neighborhoods than CPAC.

To your most recent question: I'm not sure who you mean by "we".

Instead of just implying it is happening, why not tell us what you know ...the who, what, and where of it?

[ronchamblin]

Time seems not generous, and nor is the state of mind to engage our problem.  However, I offer the below ideas for a temporary input, and will continue soon.

The journey we speak of will end when we have achieved core vibrancy and infill.  If anyone contemplates the question as to why we should strive for vibrancy and infill, one might consider the image of a house deteriorated with neglect, with a yard left unkempt with trash upon it.  A well kept house and yard assumes the existence of order, of caring, of concern, of reasonable economic comfort for the residents, and ... unless there is an opposing reality within ...  of love ... presenting a scene of balance and beauty for those within, and for those passing by.     

As expressed earlier, the fact of our failure to proceed along our journey to destination implies the existence of a problem ... a somewhat complex problem.  Those remembering certain seemingly complex physics problems will recall that progress to solution could be achieved only via a structured approach ... first identifying the essence of a solution ... then a separation of the significant factors from the insignificant ... relating each to each, and slowing forming a logical path to solution ... arriving at an equation, which is actually, in our scenario, a structured plan of action.
Therefore, we might begin by clarifying the essence of a solution to the problem before us ... regarding the journey to true core vibrancy and infill.   

Of all the attributes and characteristics that one might expect in a vibrant core, no single aspect can exceed in importance the existence of a respectably high "permanent population" in the core, in the form of residents, workers, and visitors.  In fact, genuine core vibrancy cannot possibly exist without this permanent population.  Sounds too simple.  However, to ignore this component -- which is actually the component to which all other factors and aspects are related -- is to be foolish, and would perpetuate our relative meandering along the journey.  Although temporary "people" drawn into the core via events is necessary as in interim method of providing interest and energy in the core ... and will actually form a part of true vibrancy eventually ... we cannot allow this temporary population to offer too generous a satisfaction as to progress toward true core vibrancy. 

The permanent population implies of course that permanent "businesses" have been drawn into the core, along with interesting nightlife; with the visitors and tourists following.   

Therefore, if it is true that little of consequence can happen toward genuine core vibrancy without the infusion of a population of "permanent" residents and workers etc, we might wonder what most influences any increases or decreases in this permanent population.  All focus ... all decisions, to varying degrees, must address the goal of increasing the permanent core population.

Permanent creature infusions into the core are facilitated and persuaded, and sometimes dissuaded, by natural mechanisms stabilized within infrastructure and policies -- offering positives to entice and negatives to deter human decisions to permanently engage the core.   

These natural mechanisms of positives and negatives function 24 hours per day, every day of the year, and as a consequence, greatly impact the decisions of potential residents and investors to engage or to avoid the core.

Besides the impact upon potential core residents/entrepreneurs of a set of mechanisms or conditions evolved from the natural consequences of a population attempting to make a living in the core, there are the "profound projects" generated by moneyed and determined investors to "force" an impact upon the core ...  projects such as the Trio, the Landing, the Shipyards, the Sports Complex, and even visionary efforts from taxpayer based projects such as mass transit.  These processes of both "force" and "enticement" are necessary to ensure respectable progress toward the goal of full vibrancy and infill.  Of course the profound projects often involve "risks" to those attempting them.

Must get to work.  The above might be somewhat askew from a perfect post, but I don't have time to polish.  Can't wait to talk about the next phase in the process of  arriving at a formula ... which should offer the much needed structure affecting decisions and action. 

[ronchamblin]

Sierra Delta, thank you your patience regarding my slow responses to our conversation ... although I've improved my awareness of the core issues by reading many of the earlier articles, and the posts by you and others, I move along with some naivety, and therefore error.  But my focus is about process to action ... an attempt introduce clarity to the problem, with possible clues as to viable structure of solution.

I realize that my thinking aloud approach is somewhat tedious ... perhaps boring and repetitive, but this method of discussion might stress the importance of form and structure, and perhaps improve focus upon certain realities that "must" be addressed if progress along the journey to core vibrancy and infill is to be accelerated.   

The previous post suggests two important components; one being the expensive and risky "profound projects", and the other being the accumulated natural mechanisms stabilized within infrastructure and policies.  In the first ... called "profound projects" ... the heavy investors engage their own visions, making decisions to act according to risks and potential rewards.  Although the powers-that-be can encourage and invite these important individuals into the core, we must be prepared to wait for the brave and moneyed to jump into it.

It is the second component that, in my view, is the most important to us at this point, as it involves the shaping of the infrastructure and policies within the core so that the scenario offers, through time, a greater number of "positives", and fewer "negatives"; thereby enticing, encouraging, and allowing potential residents, entrepreneurs, businesses, and visitors to engage the core.  Of course this scenario offers the same invitations to the potential "profound project" heavy infestors.

If we were to imagine that, on the left side of an equation, is placed the goal of vibrancy, with its essence of a high permanent population, then we might imagine on the right, factors and components that can either act as positives or negatives, thus increasing or decreasing the magnitude on left .... the essence of the goal.  This brings us to the profound realization that all we must do, in order to achieve our goal of vibrancy and infill as represented by the magnitude on the left, is to manipulate the variables on the right.

Must get to work. We are getting close to discussing the factors most profoundly affecting the left side of the equation.  Some are related to each other, rising and falling according to dynamics berween.  I would like to introduce the perhaps dozen related factors, but reduce them to six or so as a consequence of bundling two or three together, simply because they are so intertwined, and are in reality only "one' issue. 

For example, and I pick this item for no particular reason, if one major factor is that of proper, effective, and efficient use of each block in the core; that is, so that each block supports maximum use of real estate in regards to maintaining a reasonably high "population" upon it throughout each day of the year -- then we might look at the existence of, and the future of, the First Baptist Church in the core -- not that I wish to, or expect to, affect the future of the FBC.

Although the above comment is potentially rather offensive to certain entities, I might remind the reader that my intention is of be objective, giving attention to what I consider to be crucial and unavoidable factors as related to the goal of revitalization.  There is much to be said about the dynamics involving the FBC -- its origin, the original need for this church in the core, the great accomplishments of the church through its existence.  In any case, I look forward to clarification of the above words regarding the FBC, and invite any responders to be patient.  Even though I am an atheist, I intend to convince any reader that my words about the FBC are related not to religion, but to the goal of revitalization, and therefore, to the goal of a better quality of life for all citizens of our city.   

Again, I must get to work. Be back soon.