High speed rail project has eye on Jacksonville

[Brian_Tampa]

Luckily for AAF, that won't affect them as they will end in downtown Tampa. The only I-4 interchanges I'm aware of that might need rebuilding are I-4 at 559 and the eastern Polk County Parkway interchange.  I know that the  CSX bridge will be an issue in Lakeland as well. All other bridges from my understanding will be compatible with future rail alignments. That is why I say AAF won't have a big issue expanding to Tampa. FDOT is pretty much fixing the problem areas before AAF will build.

@tufsu1
Checkout  http://www.tampabayexpress.com/master-plan/   under appendix A for the I-4 route maps and you will see how FDOT has carved out a typical 44ft wide section in the median. I believe it is labeled as 'intermodal' ROW now. There is a narrow spot between plant city and the Polk County parkway interchange near county line road. I've been told that the lead project engineer for this toll lane project worked on the old HSR project and is aware of the requirements to put rail down the median.

FDOT has been struggling with how to preserve the rail envelope and do TBX in some areas....primarily in the Westshore district.  East of 50th Street on I-4, it pretty much won't be a problem.

[spuwho]

The I-4 Ultimate updates can be found here:

http://i4ultimate.com

[NaldoAveKnight]

Hahaha.....how did this turn into a discussion about trains replacing cars for trips to Home Depot and the supermarket? Lol, Naldo, you're all over the place.

The idea of using a train on a regular basis in the state of Florida for other than daily commuting is absurd.  Taxpayers shouldn't subsidize $1.75 billion in bonds that will absolutely with 100% certainty go into default.  That is why the All Aboard Florida company exists separate from Florida East Coast Railway, when the bonds default it will not effect the parent company. 

Personally, I rather spend $1.75 billion on education so we don't have stupid voters allowing things like this to happen.

[NaldoAveKnight]

Brown University report on the finances behind All Aboard Florida: http://www.ircgov.com/Public_Notices/Rail/AAF-Friedman-Report.pdf

The author, John Friedman, is a darling of the Obama administration, so political bias against public transit probably isn't at play here.  It's just straight facts.

"As an entity that is entirely privately owned, All Aboard Florida represents an inefficient use of tax-exempt bonds. These subsidies distort the allocation of capital towards this project and away from others that are potentially more efficient yet lack tax subsidies. The subsidies also reward the operating company and bondholders. The subsidies are not likely to lower ticket prices substantially, since ticket prices will be set based on the market for transportation in Southern Florida, and so consumers are unlikely to benefit substantially from the government subsidy (relative to unsubsidized private financing)."

"In addition to the large annual subsidy from the use of PABs, AAF will receive a number of other taxpayer subsidies from state and local sources.
The State of Florida and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) are paying for the construction of an intermodal facility at Orlando International Airport, at the cost of $214 million. AAF will use this subsidized facility as the Orlando terminal for their service, saving them the costs of station construction. The State of Florida is also paying an initial subsidy to local governments along AAF's route for safety upgrades of $10 million. 22 Amortized at a 5% interest rate, the annual value of these subsidies is $11.2 million.
Another source of subsidies comes from counties along the AAF route, which will be required by Florida law to pay for the improvement and maintenance of road crossings as AAF converts the existing freight line to handle passenger rail service. The exact value of these subsidies is somewhat more difficult to calculate, but an estimate from Brevard County suggests that these costs are $300,000-$400,000 for just the crossings in that county (in which AAF trains will not stop at all). Scaling up for the entire rail line puts these subsidies at roughly $2 million annually."

[thelakelander]

The 21-mile I-4 Ultimate project in Orlando is $2.3 billion. It's 100% tax payer funded.

[thelakelander]

Lol, it will be a great sucker of money. However, it involves rubber wheels, so you won't get much complaining from those threatened by people actually having alternative mobility options.

[Brian_Tampa]

2 points to be made.

1. The bonds are not backed by any taxpayer.

2. The report by Friedman was paid for by the anti-AAF group CARE.  So I look at that report as being biased. It lumped in the cost for the real estate development around the stations as being a cost to be repaid by train fare revenue. That's how bad that report was!

This is just more anti-AAF misinformation being repeated here.

[ProjectMaximus]

^Great points.

It lumped in the cost for the real estate development around the stations as being a cost to be repaid by train fare revenue. That's how bad that report was!

LOL!!!

[Ocklawaha]

My crystal ball:

I believe we'll see the stop in Cocoa taking shape around, possibly just before the announcement of the Jacksonville leg.

If Amtrak chooses to use the FEC RY east and south of Orlando, it is going to damage our position as the railroad gateway to Florida. Terminating new trains in Orlando is ominous.

Don't expect AAF to send more then 8 trains north of Cocoa unless they develop a massive real estate project locally. LaVilla is ripe for such an undertaking but they have possibilities in San Marco, San Jose, Bowden, Avenues Walk/Flagler, and in St. John's where the opportunity for a rail/air/highway terminal is possible.

Speeds on the Jacksonville St.Augustine segment will be in the 79-90 mph area, south of King in St. Augustine much higher speeds are a possibility as far south as Bunnell and from there to Daytona the curvy old narrow gauge right of way will be problematic.

Atlanta, FEC's long time operating agreements with Norfolk Southern, AAF, GDOT,'s rail dreams, could easily become something huge.

Tampa's hopes might depend on CSX's willingness to divest itself of the 'A' line and if they do, the northern half of it into JAX is going to be worthless.

Expect the NASA RR to reach the north side of Port Canaveral soon.

JACKSONVILLE SLEEPS.

[Brian_Tampa]

^^@Ock

How does the A line impact AAF coming to Tampa? To CSX that line is still valuable west of Auburndale. I just can't see them being willing to sell that line to the competition. Maybe when the phosphate industry collapses in 20 years they will sell. But not yet...

I know you want AAF to end at TUS (Tampa Union Station) here, but I really don't think that is going to happen. AAF needs major TOD around stations and TUS in my opinion won't deliver that. The area is too confined with adjacent highways and not really situated properly. Why else is AAF working with FDOT now on the I-4 rail envelop? It's because they desire a better location for their Tampa station and related TOD then what TUS offers.

[thelakelander]

Since when did FDOT start working with AAF on I-4's rail easement?

[Brian_Tampa]

Since when I first asked about 2 years ago is what I've been told by both AAF and by FDOT. There really is some preliminary stuff going on that most don't know about unless you ask ☺

FDOT has made sure that the rail envelope has been preserved for AAF. They aren't doing any design work, just coordination type stuff. It's all very preliminary type stuff for sure. But significant for its implications...

Since when did FDOT start working with AAF on I-4's rail easement?

[thelakelander]

Interesting.  Some of the median is being considered for commuter rail and LRT in the Orlando area.

[Brian_Tampa]

I am referring to the section west of SR 528 (convention center interchange).  Basically the same route as the HSR project...

Edit: I sent you a PM Lakelander

Interesting.  Some of the median is being considered for commuter rail and LRT in the Orlando area.

[spuwho]

Brown University report on the finances behind All Aboard Florida: http://www.ircgov.com/Public_Notices/Rail/AAF-Friedman-Report.pdf

The author, John Friedman, is a darling of the Obama administration, so political bias against public transit probably isn't at play here.  It's just straight facts.

"As an entity that is entirely privately owned, All Aboard Florida represents an inefficient use of tax-exempt bonds. These subsidies distort the allocation of capital towards this project and away from others that are potentially more efficient yet lack tax subsidies. The subsidies also reward the operating company and bondholders. The subsidies are not likely to lower ticket prices substantially, since ticket prices will be set based on the market for transportation in Southern Florida, and so consumers are unlikely to benefit substantially from the government subsidy (relative to unsubsidized private financing)."

"In addition to the large annual subsidy from the use of PABs, AAF will receive a number of other taxpayer subsidies from state and local sources.
The State of Florida and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) are paying for the construction of an intermodal facility at Orlando International Airport, at the cost of $214 million. AAF will use this subsidized facility as the Orlando terminal for their service, saving them the costs of station construction. The State of Florida is also paying an initial subsidy to local governments along AAF's route for safety upgrades of $10 million. 22 Amortized at a 5% interest rate, the annual value of these subsidies is $11.2 million.
Another source of subsidies comes from counties along the AAF route, which will be required by Florida law to pay for the improvement and maintenance of road crossings as AAF converts the existing freight line to handle passenger rail service. The exact value of these subsidies is somewhat more difficult to calculate, but an estimate from Brevard County suggests that these costs are $300,000-$400,000 for just the crossings in that county (in which AAF trains will not stop at all). Scaling up for the entire rail line puts these subsidies at roughly $2 million annually."

This report from the economist from Brown was dismissed.

He conducted no due diligence beyond the mouse of his MacBook Pro. He spoke to no public or AAF officials. He reviewed no documentation from OOCEA on the ROW lease. It was a weak attempt at a hatchet job to undermine the RRIF loan request in Congress.

If I was an professor of economics, I would have given this guy an "F" .

Naldo, you are going to have to come up with some better data showing the demerits of the effort. I am up to seeing anything you have on it.