High speed rail project has eye on Jacksonville

[ProjectMaximus]

There's freight potential connecting Orlando to Port Canaveral. I'm on my way home to Polk County. I'll respond in greater detail once I get stationary.

LOL if only you were riding the Brightline back to Jax you could respond in greater detail already. 

[NaldoAveKnight]

The All Aboard Florida scam is a CSX boondoggle to pay for track improvements.  CSX has sucked in public transit enthusiasts to support this mess.  Can you imagine a train blasting through a small Florida town going 125 mph?  How many people will get killed when one of these 125 mph trains goes off the track or hits a car?  Train accidents are frequent, running trains over existing crossings at 125 mph will basically create a hazard unlike anything we have known. 

Prediction - After the first horrific crash and the lawyers completely take All Aboard Florida to the cleaners, the taxpayers will be on the hook for all of the track improvement bonds.  The only folks making money on this deal is CSX and the lawyers suing All Aboard Florida.  Losers?  The taxpayers.

There is existing Amtrak service to Miami, Orlando, Tampa, etc from Jacksonville but nobody uses it.

This might be the most ill informed post we've ever had on MJ. Shall we even consider it serious?

AAF parent FEC RY/Fortress/FECI are fierce competitors of CSX, how anyone can think they are related is news to me.
Trains won't be running at 125 mph through any town. Railroads are governed and their speeds are set by city, county, state and federal law. The 125mph stretch will be between Orlando and Cocoa where there is absolutely nothing. In the future south of St. Augustine is good for 90 mph to north of Ormond Beach. This is about as fast as they ran these trains in 1938! Without digital signaling assistance.

ZERO tax dollars are being invested in this. The loans will normally go through the RRRR Act which simply allows railroads to borrow at lower fixed rates as it is a hugely $$ intense business (meaning at a market you might invest $100 and gross $140. In railroading you'd invest $100 and be damn lucky to see $105 returned.

Frequent accidents? Horrific accidents? Where? When? Do you realize American railroads are among the very safest transportation modes in the entire world? Even these 'horrific' accidents, where a train jumps the track and flys into a ditch usually have less then a dozen fatalities. (If any).. Try that with a 747.

Nobody uses Amtrak? Try and get a reservation to New York or Miami. Good luck with that. SOLD OUT, typically through most of the year.

I tried to answer your concerns honestly, but I can only imagine a response. For the record I am a well published railroad author, historian and former planner for the National Railroads in Colombia. Lakelander is a well known urban and transportation planner and another MJ publisher is a CSX executive. I believe our expertise trumps rumors and hysteria.

Here's a map of rail lines in the state of Florida.  Florida East Coast Railway (All Aboard Florida) is basically the old Flager rail line down the east coast.  CSX owns pretty much the rest of the state.  Any connections to Jacksonville from Orlando or Tampa to Orlando are going over CSX track.

The reason Amtrak sells out is because it doesn't make any money and they run a bare minimum of trains just to give the appearance of an ongoing enterprise so congress will continue to fund pensions and pay for existing workers.  Amtrak is a zombie operation in every sense.

Even Florida East Coast Railway isn't hiding the fact that track improvements for increased freight from the new jumbo cargo ships coming through the enlarged Panama canal is the reason for floating the tax payer backed bonds.  It's public transit enthusiasts and taxpayers that are the suckers thinking that the All Aboard Florida hoax has anything to do with public transportation.  It's just corporate welfare with a public relations spin.  http://www.progressiverailroading.com/csx_transportation/article/South-Florida-rail-upgrades-to-provide-more-freight-transit-travel-options--39706

Instead of Jacksonville dredging it's port to allow for the larger ships Miami took the lead.  Now we have to run all that freight through the entire state of Florida instead of providing jobs at our port.  By the way, dredging Miami's port has been a huge environmental disaster as pretty much all of the coral around Miami is dead or dying from all the sediment that was kicked up in the dredging project.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/despite-protections-miami-port-project-smothers-coral-reef-in-silt.html?_r=0
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150226-miami-biscayne-bay-florida-coral-dredging-channels-environment/

[thelakelander]

^AAF is building a new line to Orlando from the FEC main line near Cocoa.  This rail system won't be using CSX tracks. Also, the state now owns the old CSX line through Orlando.

[NaldoAveKnight]

^AAF is building a new line to Orlando from the FEC main line near Cocoa.  This rail system won't be using CSX tracks. Also, the state now owns the old CSX line through Orlando.

Once the freight gets to Jax it most likely will be transported on CSX lines to points north and west.  Also, any All Aboard Florida connections with Tampa and Jacksonville from Orlando would probably make use of CSX lines unless new track is laid. 

As appealing as 'high speed rail' sounds it's really just track upgrades for the increase in freight traffic from Miami.  A few token All Aboard Florida trains will run for a period of time before the operation goes bankrupt and taxpayers foot the bill for the rail bonds.

Interesting article on the state of high speed trains in the US.  http://gizmodo.com/americas-trains-suck-because-most-americans-dont-ride-t-1704575519

[acme54321]

^AAF is building a new line to Orlando from the FEC main line near Cocoa.  This rail system won't be using CSX tracks. Also, the state now owns the old CSX line through Orlando.

Once the freight gets to Jax it most likely will be transported on CSX lines to points north and west.  Also, any All Aboard Florida connections with Tampa and Jacksonville from Orlando would probably make use of CSX lines unless new track is laid. 

As appealing as 'high speed rail' sounds it's really just track upgrades for the increase in freight traffic from Miami.  A few token All Aboard Florida trains will run for a period of time before the operation goes bankrupt and taxpayers foot the bill for the rail bonds.

Interesting article on the state of high speed trains in the US.  http://gizmodo.com/americas-trains-suck-because-most-americans-dont-ride-t-1704575519

You should really stop.  Especially with the whole CSX thing since AAF has absolutely nothing to do with CSX.

[Brian_Tampa]

^^Naldo
You do realize that FECR does not need the second track that AAF is installing to handle any conceivable increase in freight due to the Panama canal or other causes? As recently as 10 years ago FECR ran almost twice as many trains as they do today using a single track railway. Why would FECI spend $2B on expanding half of their existing route to Jacksonville if they only wanted to run more freight trains. What you say makes no sense.

I would not be surprised if you live on the Treasure Coast. There are plenty of NIMBYS there that have spread misinformation such as what you are saying here. Give KC Traylor my regards when you talk to her next :-)

[Ocklawaha]

Sorry but your spin on the railroad system and it's operation barely makes any sense at all. The posts have that definite TROLL slant.

Be that as it may, no passenger connection to Jacksonville from Orlando on AAF is going to Amtrak or CSX, they will use their own track from MCO to Cocoa and hence north to JAX.

Your information about the 'Money Losing Long-Distance Trains' sound like a parroting of certain anti-rail publications which use Amtrak's own twisted accounting against them. Recent investigation (and I believe we'll all be seeing much more of this soon enough) has shown that the 'MONEY MAKING HSR IN THE NORTHEAST CORRIDOR' is not what Amtrak would have us believe. The short version is the NEC is not charged with it's own maintenance, those charges are carried by the MONEY LOSING LONG DISTANCE TRAINS... Uh huh? In other words if Amtrak could or would get their numbers straight, we'd be seeing many of those long-distance trains breaking even or better. Moreover we'd be seeing a fair and equitable investment in expansion and improvement of the long-distance trains which have seen nothing but cuts since 1971. Something is rotten in Washington, and Amtrak smells to high heaven, but it's not the fault of the trains or some imagined lack of riders.

Lastly, the (Orlando-Cocoa) track AAF is laying will see very little freight use as track structure should be somewhat flexible, building track for heavy slower freight and faster lightweight passenger trains is two completely different endeavors. In other words if FEC ran it's freight trains over the High Speed Passenger track in France, those passenger trains would have to slow to 80-90mph. Likewise if you ran those fast trains down the FEC or CSX you wouldn't want to ride, that track structure would be far too stiff and it would buck you around like a mechanical bull. So the crazy talk about they are secretly building freight track is pure BS. No doubt some freight track will have to be altered, added or subtracted to make the system work, but exclusive freight track this certainly isn't.

[Brian_Tampa]

^^Ocklawaha
Actually according to AAF and comments made by FECR people, the freight railway will use the new infrastructure being built by AAF on the route to Cocoa. Both tracks will be used by FECR freight trains and AAF passenger trains.  That's the only way the route can handle 32 more trains each day. 110mph passenger trains will coexist with 60-70mph freight trains. There will be double crossovers spaced every 8-10 miles according to the track plans I have seen from the FRA EIS documents. AAF trains will be given priority and the freight trains will move out the way is my understanding. In Martin and St Lucie Counties there will be two stretches of triple track on each side of the St Lucie River to enable staging of freight trains across the single track drawbridge at Stuart in order to minimize bridge closure times. The third (center) track will be used as a slower speed passing track for freight trains much like the ICRR used in Illinois years ago.

Now regarding the freight traffic to Orlando (and Tampa?) that Lakelander mentioned.... well let me just say that I have heard anything is possible.  There is an agreement with Deseret Ranches and the CFX authority where a freight track can be built alongside the Beach line highway and AAF track.  However, the GOAA was adamant that no freight trains could pass through airport property. But from what I heard, FECR might be able to operate freight trains to Orlando.  Maybe to a point east of the airport?

[thelakelander]

^There's a rail line that goes around the south side of the airport to a coal power plant that's east of the airport. Any potential connection to it will tie the new AAF line into the line the state operates Sunrail on.

[thelakelander]

AAF has found money for 40 miles of new construction to reach a station that they don't control and with no possible TOD benefits to them at the Orlando airport. There are no obvious AAF revenue streams available to FECI north of WPB along the FECR route to Cocoa, similar to the route along I4. Although I would think that AAF would build stations near Lakeland and at Disney World (seeing how a lot of their senior team has worked for Disney in the past lol).

The potential great revenue generator here would be FEC having new found freight access to Florida's third largest MSA.

Jacksonville and Tampa are similar in that the most likely location for an AAF station in each city is surrounded by available land owned by government agencies. I did a check and discovered that most of the area in Tampa around the previously proposed HSR station (and likely location for AAF) is owned by the city, county or state. Both potential sites in each city are close to public transit centers. Here in downtown Tampa there is over $2-3B in planned development within 2 miles of the train station site over the next 10 years or so. I would think that FECI would be taking that into consideration as well.

The significant difference is that FEC already owns and operates the track through DT Jax. Getting into Tampa is a lot more complicated and requires more upfront investment.

The potential for AAF coming to Tampa is not as impossible as you might think.  There are good reasons why there is ongoing (but unreported) progress here in Tampa in regards to AAF.

I don't think it is impossible. Just significantly more expensive to the point where massive public investment may be needed to pull it off.

Edit: I might add that maximizing passenger numbers does increase the value and revenue streams from related TOD development. If Tampa can add X numbers of passengers using their system, that benefits their investments in WPB, FTL, and MIA as much as anyplace else. I believe that AAF needs to expand out of Orlando in order to realize their true potential. Their Orlando site is not ideal to maximize revenue from non passenger sources.

IMO, the best thing Tampa can do is find a way to get FEC access into the port.

[Brian_Tampa]

^There's a rail line that goes around the south side of the airport to a coal power plant that's east of the airport. Any potential connection to it will tie the new AAF line into the line the state operates Sunrail on.

Exactly! Any FECR freight operations will use the Orlando Utilities rail line for local service such as intermodal. I would not be surprised if FECR and OUC are talking at this time. It would be somewhat easy to set up.  The only issue would be the STB regarding any use of AAF track. Honestly, I can see more benefit to FECR expanding to Tampa than to Orlando.  They can already serve Orlando from their facilities in Brevard quite easily. Tampa would bring additional customers who might otherwise use CSX. The distance from Brevard to Tampa is such that CSX has an advantage with their new intermodal distribution center in Polk County.

And I am not sure how rigid the GOAA is on enforcing the freight train ban. If FECR can get that lifted, then a line west to Tampa would definitely be more profitable for FECI. Perhaps FECI could use that as a bargaining chip with GOAA. Allow them to build to Tampa = More airport passengers from Tampa = FECR freight to Tampa. It could be a win-win situation. 

[Brian_Tampa]

AAF has found money for 40 miles of new construction to reach a station that they don't control and with no possible TOD benefits to them at the Orlando airport. There are no obvious AAF revenue streams available to FECI north of WPB along the FECR route to Cocoa, similar to the route along I4. Although I would think that AAF would build stations near Lakeland and at Disney World (seeing how a lot of their senior team has worked for Disney in the past lol).

The potential great revenue generator here would be FEC having new found freight access to Florida's third largest MSA.

Jacksonville and Tampa are similar in that the most likely location for an AAF station in each city is surrounded by available land owned by government agencies. I did a check and discovered that most of the area in Tampa around the previously proposed HSR station (and likely location for AAF) is owned by the city, county or state. Both potential sites in each city are close to public transit centers. Here in downtown Tampa there is over $2-3B in planned development within 2 miles of the train station site over the next 10 years or so. I would think that FECI would be taking that into consideration as well.

The significant difference is that FEC already owns and operates the track through DT Jax. Getting into Tampa is a lot more complicated and requires more upfront investment.

The potential for AAF coming to Tampa is not as impossible as you might think.  There are good reasons why there is ongoing (but unreported) progress here in Tampa in regards to AAF.

I don't think it is impossible. Just significantly more expensive to the point where massive public investment may be needed to pull it off.

Edit: I might add that maximizing passenger numbers does increase the value and revenue streams from related TOD development. If Tampa can add X numbers of passengers using their system, that benefits their investments in WPB, FTL, and MIA as much as anyplace else. I believe that AAF needs to expand out of Orlando in order to realize their true potential. Their Orlando site is not ideal to maximize revenue from non passenger sources.

IMO, the best thing Tampa can do is find a way to get FEC access into the port.

But the expense of building 40 miles of new 125mph passenger rail track can't be rationalized by a goal of potential new freight revenue. It is my belief that any freight service to Orlando will be of FECR's own accord.

Access to downtown Tampa can be done via I4. It isn't that difficult and if the ROI is met, it can be done without public subsidies. If the TOD potential is great enough, AAF will build to Tampa. There is enough room for that i believe.

As far as the Port of Tampa, there is no easy way to gain access to it without going through CSX as well as established neighborhoods between the port and I4. And CSX would never permit FECR access to their main source of revenue in Tampa. The best FECR could hope for is new intermodal business from Orlando and Tampa. Like I commented on above, reaching Orlando isn't much of a benefit to FECR as its too close to the existing route in Brevard County. Providing intermodal service to Tampa would be a big deal for FECR. They could build a new TOFC/COFC yard nearby I4 east of Tampa for a relatively cheap amount of money.

[thelakelander]

I'd have to go back and look at the plans, but as of now, no high speed rail envelop exists on I-4, the Beach Line or 417 in the Orlando area. These highways will have to be completely rebuilt, making the expense to expand to Tampa, close to double the cost of the entire Orlando/Miami line. IMO, some public subsidies will be needed somewhere for a $2 billion, 80 mile extension of new infrastructure on public ROW.

Also, from day one, it's been my understanding that revenue was going to be generated by a lot more than just passenger rail. To say that potential profits/benefits for the affiliate entities under the FECI and FECR umbrella don't matter pretty much goes against my understanding of the project altogether.

[RattlerGator]

RattlerGator, does this help?

Yes, it certainly does. Thank you.

[Tacachale]

Tampa would probably be a better next phase if AAF were in a vacuum where the only goal was passenger service. But as it's happening that way, it's hard to see it happening next, considering level of investment and the fact that the Jacksonville route is largely already in place. Of course none of it will happen if they don't get good return on investment to Orlando.