Why is Downtown a Blank Slate?

[Coolyfett]

As for Atlanta downtown vs. Jacksonville downtown, Atlanta is a city 4 times our size yet its downtown is woefully underdeveloped.  The fact that we can even compare Jacksonville to it speaks volumes about its failure.  The problem with downtown Atlanta (not counting Midtown) is that it has many attractions but they are largely disconnected, there are few residents, locals don't go there for anything and the whole area is truly unsafe after dark.  Very few people live in downtown Atlanta to this day and their downtown Macy's just closed a year or two ago.  In fact, the whole downtown establishment has basically decamped for Midtown or Buckhead over the past 30 years.  So, they are clearly not an example to follow IMO. 

Dude? what are you talking about, someone is moving into that old Macy's building, they been pressure washing the front of that place for like 2 months. Atlanta is not bigger than Jacksonville....but I will say more people come OUTSIDE in Atlanta. Measure 285 & 295 in miles they are about the same, with the same amount of exits. The attractions are not disconnected in Atlanta you could do all of them on foot if you know the routes. My man you are totally out of touch. Gentrification is in motion, in both Jacksonville & Atlanta & everywhere else. Only the dumb would volunteer to live in the out skirts as of now. The cash & business is moving back to the core.

"Locals don't go there for anything"

Man I just went to the Falcons v. Cheifs game DOWNTOWN....Im going to Hooters tonight.

"the whole area is truly unsafe after dark"

Man I can walk from the Underground all the way to the Bank of America building (about 10 blocks) 3 AM in the morning.....why you trying to make downtown seem like the projects? its not. Its like comparing Cleveland Arms & Eureaka Gardens to Downtown Jacksonville downtown are becoming safer, the thugs live in the burbs now...

[ProjectMaximus]

1) His point was that the Macy's couldn't stay open. If someone's getting ready to move in, then great, but it's irrelevant.

2) I think RG meant that Atlanta is much larger in population...not area.

3) Locals don't go there for anything (except special events). He was exaggerating but if you can look past that, then he has a point. Locals here also go to Jaguars games, yet I too would argue that most people in this city dont go downtown for "anything" either.

4) Unsafe is a relative feeling from person to person. You feel safe in DT Atlanta, while some others don't.

All in all, I think RG touched a nerve and you've reacted rather defensively. I wouldn't say that either one of you is wrong or at fault for this, but I personally think that while there's always plenty we can learn from any city (and Atlanta is no exception) I agree with RG in that there's more we can take from Atlanta's shortcomings than from its successes. The city has a huge population, plenty of large corporations, and an international status, yet its poor planning and sprawl has hampered what could have been THE city of the south.

As for Atlanta downtown vs. Jacksonville downtown, Atlanta is a city 4 times our size yet its downtown is woefully underdeveloped.  The fact that we can even compare Jacksonville to it speaks volumes about its failure.  The problem with downtown Atlanta (not counting Midtown) is that it has many attractions but they are largely disconnected, there are few residents, locals don't go there for anything and the whole area is truly unsafe after dark.  Very few people live in downtown Atlanta to this day and their downtown Macy's just closed a year or two ago.  In fact, the whole downtown establishment has basically decamped for Midtown or Buckhead over the past 30 years.  So, they are clearly not an example to follow IMO. 

Dude? what are you talking about, someone is moving into that old Macy's building, they been pressure washing the front of that place for like 2 months. Atlanta is not bigger than Jacksonville....but I will say more people come OUTSIDE in Atlanta. Measure 285 & 295 in miles they are about the same, with the same amount of exits. The attractions are not disconnected in Atlanta you could do all of them on foot if you know the routes. My man you are totally out of touch. Gentrification is in motion, in both Jacksonville & Atlanta & everywhere else. Only the dumb would volunteer to live in the out skirts as of now. The cash & business is moving back to the core.

"Locals don't go there for anything"

Man I just went to the Falcons v. Cheifs game DOWNTOWN....Im going to Hooters tonight.

"the whole area is truly unsafe after dark"

Man I can walk from the Underground all the way to the Bank of America building (about 10 blocks) 3 AM in the morning.....why you trying to make downtown seem like the projects? its not. Its like comparing Cleveland Arms & Eureaka Gardens to Downtown Jacksonville downtown are becoming safer, the thugs live in the burbs now...

[JaxByDefault]

I lived in Atlanta for a while and even back in the 1990s I felt safe walking alone in almost all of downtown and midtown.

I assume that everyone here is making a clear distinction between downtown and midtown Atlanta, though to people less familiar with the area, that distinction is less clear. Both areas look, feel, and function like a cohesive metropolitan "downtown."

The notion that Atlantians do not go downtown/midtown for anything other than work or the occasional game is absurd. The area is full of museums, theatre, restaurants, festivals, music venues, bars/clubs/pubs, nearby niche neighborhoods (Virginia Highlands), and spaces for living and working. 

Atlanta --once the poster child for how not to promote smart growth-- is now one of America's best examples that a city can rescue its urban core from decades of unchecked sprawl and poor urban planning.


There is a sizable part of metro the population who consider their address to be Atlanta but seldom venture inside of the perimeter, but 4 million people call Fulton people home and many of them enjoy the vibrant urban areas. I know people in the Atlanta MSA who consider almost everything inside the Perimeter to be the urban core. I'm guessing a lot of surburban JAX views our downtown in a similar way. This why Springfield, Downtown, Southbank, and Riverside connectivity is so important. The area can benefit from the strength of the niche neighborhoods, espeically while downtown is on the upswing. (People flocked to Virginia Highlands and Decatur before Midtown and Downtown became an equally trendy destination.)

[ProjectMaximus]

The notion that Atlantians do not go downtown/midtown for anything other than work or the occasional game is absurd. The area is full of museums, theatre, restaurants, festivals, music venues, bars/clubs/pubs, nearby niche neighborhoods (Virginia Highlands), and spaces for living and working. 

Again, I think he was speaking in hyperbole. Compared to the number of people in Atlanta's MSA, and relative to cities like Chicago and NYC where people go downtown (the urban core) for EVERYTHING, it is possible to perceive that Atlantians dont go downtown very often. That said, I'm just explaining the way I read his comment, and also extrapolating from the little I know. Truth is, I don't know too much about the situation in Atlanta and you're right, it could be a top destination for the suburbanites these days.

Atlanta --once the poster child for how not to promote smart growth-- is now one of America's best examples that a city can rescue its urban core from decades of unchecked sprawl and poor urban planning.

I trust you here...it's easy to be the definitive example for positive turnaround when you started as the quintessential poor example. Can't be Most Improved Player if you don't have a bad season first.

[Coolyfett]

1) His point was that the Macy's couldn't stay open. If someone's getting ready to move in, then great, but it's irrelevant.

2) I think RG meant that Atlanta is much larger in population...not area.

3) Locals don't go there for anything (except special events). He was exaggerating but if you can look past that, then he has a point. Locals here also go to Jaguars games, yet I too would argue that most people in this city dont go downtown for "anything" either.

4) Unsafe is a relative feeling from person to person. You feel safe in DT Atlanta, while some others don't.

All in all, I think RG touched a nerve and you've reacted rather defensively. I wouldn't say that either one of you is wrong or at fault for this, but I personally think that while there's always plenty we can learn from any city (and Atlanta is no exception) I agree with RG in that there's more we can take from Atlanta's shortcomings than from its successes. The city has a huge population, plenty of large corporations, and an international status, yet itsp oor planning and sprawl has hampered what could have been THE city of the south.

As for Atlanta downtown vs. Jacksonville downtown, Atlanta is a city 4 times our size yet its downtown is woefully underdeveloped.  The fact that we can even compare Jacksonville to it speaks volumes about its failure.  The problem with downtown Atlanta (not counting Midtown) is that it has many attractions but they are largely disconnected, there are few residents, locals don't go there for anything and the whole area is truly unsafe after dark.  Very few people live in downtown Atlanta to this day and their downtown Macy's just closed a year or two ago.  In fact, the whole downtown establishment has basically decamped for Midtown or Buckhead over the past 30 years.  So, they are clearly not an example to follow IMO. 

Dude? what are you talking about, someone is moving into that old Macy's building, they been pressure washing the front of that place for like 2 months. Atlanta is not bigger than Jacksonville....but I will say more people come OUTSIDE in Atlanta. Measure 285 & 295 in miles they are about the same, with the same amount of exits. The attractions are not disconnected in Atlanta you could do all of them on foot if you know the routes. My man you are totally out of touch. Gentrification is in motion, in both Jacksonville & Atlanta & everywhere else. Only the dumb would volunteer to live in the out skirts as of now. The cash & business is moving back to the core.

"Locals don't go there for anything"

Man I just went to the Falcons v. Cheifs game DOWNTOWN....Im going to Hooters tonight.

"the whole area is truly unsafe after dark"

Man I can walk from the Underground all the way to the Bank of America building (about 10 blocks) 3 AM in the morning.....why you trying to make downtown seem like the projects? its not. Its like comparing Cleveland Arms & Eureaka Gardens to Downtown Jacksonville downtown are becoming safer, the thugs live in the burbs now...

Only nerve touched is the fear of downtown as an excuse not to come to it, I would be just as bothered if he said Downtown Jacksonville was full of criminals, because I know that not to be true.

As far as most people in the city...hey most people around the city don't go anywhere much less downtown, must people in Jacksonville never go to Jax Beach as well, I guess Jax Beach has too much crime??? If he said gas is too high or its too much traffic to go then yea, I would co sign THAT point. I can tell who Really goes downtown on this forum and I can tell the ones that FEAR downtowns of any city. Its ok to admit you are afraid.  Some have fear of crowds, fear of the homeless, fear of progress. All of that is understandable, but to make an empty statement that is not true fact but personal opinion is open to be challenged.

As far as Jacksonville learning from Atlanta only one department could do that and that is the leaders of the city. Not the citizens. One thing about Atlanta, it is Miami, Jacksonville, Orlando & Tallahassee all in one Metropolis. Florida has 4 major cities where as Georgia has 1. The current leaders of Jacksonville don't seem to be big thinkers, its like they lack imagination. Jax needs a J. Delaney to follow a J. Delaney. Progressive leaders are the key.

Atlanta doesn't have an international status...THEY WANT TO HAVE IT, but Atlanta is not NY LA or CHI. Miami is more international than Atlanta is IMO.

Listen to the travelers on this site versus the people that never leave their front porch. When you travel and you see other places and other things that you like, it is only natural to want some of the stuff you see in your home. Plus there are things that are very important for any city. Mass Transit is one of them. Jacksonville is very behind on that, but hopefully they can get it right. How old will you be when they do?

"poor planning and sprawl has hampered what could have been THE city of the south."

Do you mean Birmingham lol? lol sprawl has hampered much of America. Now that gas is going up, we want to fix it. When It was already fixed before everyone had a car. Inventions should help people not stress them. Greed is the reason we are suffering from this gas problem, we have gas stations completely running out of gas nowadays. The people that wanted mass transit gone were the fuel companies and the automobile makers. And look what they did. My point, every city that allowed sprawl to happen due to the automobile is hampered, not just the ones in the south.

[apvbguy]

Only nerve touched is the fear of downtown as an excuse not to come to it, I would be just as bothered if he said Downtown Jacksonville was full of criminals, because I know that not to be true.

As far as most people in the city...hey most people around the city don't go anywhere much less downtown, must people in Jacksonville never go to Jax Beach as well, I guess Jax Beach has too much crime??? If he said gas is too high or its too much traffic to go then yea, I would co sign THAT point. I can tell who Really goes downtown on this forum and I can tell the ones that FEAR downtowns of any city. Its ok to admit you are afraid.  Some have fear of crowds, fear of the homeless, fear of progress. All of that is understandable, but to make an empty statement that is not true fact but personal opinion is open to be challenged.

I can tell you why I rarely go to the core, there is little there to draw me there, other than a rare show or event there is nothing of interest there for me. The streets are empty, the stores are empty, there are no restaurants there that compel a visit.
Why would anyone go there? other than events there is nothing there, in fact the place is a bit bizarre, the desolation isn't very welcoming.
Everything you would think would be in the city can be found much closer to where the majority of people live.
As for JAX beach, plenty of people go there either for the beach or nightlife but I rarely venture there either, JAX beach does nothing for me either. And FWIW I think that you run a better chance of being a victim of crime in JAX beach than in the core.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Coolyfett is right about progressive leadership must follow progessive leadership. I really like this site, especially the learning from threads. It gives me a chance to see what other cities are doing or have. It makes you want ot visit if travel is your thing. I lived in Atlanta for 8 years so i can speak on both cities since I've lived in both. No you cant compare the two, but that doesnt mean Jax cant accomplished some of the things they have just maybe to a smaller degree. You dont have major corporations lining the the skyline to know the major issues that have been discussed on this site. Our downtown should not be in the situation that it is in,and on top of that do we see any change what so ever that the leaders of this city have any clue on what it takes to move this city in the direction it should be going in already. Most people dont go downtown why,because thats the way we have been trained over the decades theres nothing there really but the landing. I know people that didnt even know that a new library or the riverwalk had been extended,why cause no goes there,everybody here is stuck in the suburbs and until the leaders of this city decide to make downwon the place to be other than to work,,nothing will ever change here.

[ProjectMaximus]

Only nerve touched is the fear of downtown as an excuse not to come to it, I would be just as bothered if he said Downtown Jacksonville was full of criminals, because I know that not to be true.

As far as most people in the city...hey most people around the city don't go anywhere much less downtown, must people in Jacksonville never go to Jax Beach as well, I guess Jax Beach has too much crime??? If he said gas is too high or its too much traffic to go then yea, I would co sign THAT point. I can tell who Really goes downtown on this forum and I can tell the ones that FEAR downtowns of any city. Its ok to admit you are afraid.  Some have fear of crowds, fear of the homeless, fear of progress. All of that is understandable, but to make an empty statement that is not true fact but personal opinion is open to be challenged.

As far as Jacksonville learning from Atlanta only one department could do that and that is the leaders of the city. Not the citizens. One thing about Atlanta, it is Miami, Jacksonville, Orlando & Tallahassee all in one Metropolis. Florida has 4 major cities where as Georgia has 1. The current leaders of Jacksonville don't seem to be big thinkers, its like they lack imagination. Jax needs a J. Delaney to follow a J. Delaney. Progressive leaders are the key.

Atlanta doesn't have an international status...THEY WANT TO HAVE IT, but Atlanta is not NY LA or CHI. Miami is more international than Atlanta is IMO.

Listen to the travelers on this site versus the people that never leave their front porch. When you travel and you see other places and other things that you like, it is only natural to want some of the stuff you see in your home. Plus there are things that are very important for any city. Mass Transit is one of them. Jacksonville is very behind on that, but hopefully they can get it right. How old will you be when they do?

"poor planning and sprawl has hampered what could have been THE city of the south."

Do you mean Birmingham lol? lol sprawl has hampered much of America. Now that gas is going up, we want to fix it. When It was already fixed before everyone had a car. Inventions should help people not stress them. Greed is the reason we are suffering from this gas problem, we have gas stations completely running out of gas nowadays. The people that wanted mass transit gone were the fuel companies and the automobile makers. And look what they did. My point, every city that allowed sprawl to happen due to the automobile is hampered, not just the ones in the south.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. I figured since you quoted me you were addressing me directly, but in that case, I really don't follow where you're going with all of this. Anyway, I pretty much agree with everything you said above...so I'll just leave it at that. Cool.