Visiting Jacksonville this weekend rant

[tpot]

Entertaining guests in JAX was always a challenge, normally went to the beach or St Augustine........most guests from out of town were blown away by the sheer numbers of homeless people wandering the streets.....and the eternal bomb fire in the vacant lot on State Street.........resembles something out of Mad Max......

[tufsu1]

As you remember, we were involved in the bike per component campaign, driven largely by Riversiders and cyclists, and the issue is different from although related to complete streets. 

huh?

[tufsu1]

And if we have to pay another f*****g group of highly paid people/executives to go walk around another city just to see some goddamn common sense, the same common sense they can see on their own goddamn time when they go to said city anyway for business (or one that's similar),

Assuming you are referring to the chamber trips....you do know that those high paid execs don't get paid by the city (or the Chamber) to go on those trips right?

[simms3]

I do know, but I also thought all those trips were hilariously wasteful, of time and resources no matter where they came from.

[marty904]

DT Jax isn't a 24/7 type of place at this point in time. I think most places on the linked lists are outside of the actual central business district.  Yet, there's plenty of stuff you can get into when combined with the neighborhoods surround it.  It really depends on what a specific group is interested in.

DT doesn't have to be 24/7 to be "alive" but it DOES need to stay open past 5pm.  We're caught in a horrible catch 22 - Aundra Wallace says that the key to revitalization in the core is more residences (which I strongly agree with) however in order to attract more residents, you have to give them a reason to move there and currently, there is little reason.

The solution cannot be "there's things to do in Riverside or San Marco".  And I agree 100% with @stephendare - I felt like efforts to make "downtown on fire" was much present when Mayor Brown was at the helm!

[Charles Hunter]

Catching up after a few days.
I think I saw a Kayak Launch as part of the removal of the Old Court House parking lot.

Some of the costs to convert to 2 way streets includes repaving so the new lines will be clear. The DOT does its every 7 to 10 years, don't know if the City has a schedule. Have to put up new traffic signals. If you do it when you repave, the additional cost is lower. But, to do a complete conversion downtown, you'd need to do them all at the same time, increasing costs and traffic disruption. Which may all be worth it.

[Tacachale]

DT Jax isn't a 24/7 type of place at this point in time. I think most places on the linked lists are outside of the actual central business district.  Yet, there's plenty of stuff you can get into when combined with the neighborhoods surround it.  It really depends on what a specific group is interested in.

DT doesn't have to be 24/7 to be "alive" but it DOES need to stay open past 5pm.  We're caught in a horrible catch 22 - Aundra Wallace says that the key to revitalization in the core is more residences (which I strongly agree with) however in order to attract more residents, you have to give them a reason to move there and currently, there is little reason.

The solution cannot be "there's things to do in Riverside or San Marco".  And I agree 100% with @stephendare - I felt like efforts to make "downtown on fire" was much present when Mayor Brown was at the helm!

The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".

[marty904]

The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".

"Incentives" is the main reason we have so many vacant buildings downtown now... Never in my life have I seen so many "business ventures" that were so reliant on a city "chipping in" to make their business work.  Most of the "developers" that have bought buildings downtown or planned to, always depend on getting city incentives in order to make their business work.  Then when they don't get it (for whatever reason) then the buildings just sit there forever (Laura St Trio, Barnett, The Landing, etc, etc, etc) rotting away.

And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core.  If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.

Building a business plan around a venture that relies on city incentives is like bringing on a silent (or not so silent) partner that you don't even know if they have their share of the investment.  I don't get it...

[Tacachale]

The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".

"Incentives" is the main reason we have so many vacant buildings downtown now... Never in my life have I seen so many "business ventures" that were so reliant on a city "chipping in" to make their business work.  Most of the "developers" that have bought buildings downtown or planned to, always depend on getting city incentives in order to make their business work.  Then when they don't get it (for whatever reason) then the buildings just sit there forever (Laura St Trio, Barnett, The Landing, etc, etc, etc) rotting away.

And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core.  If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.

Building a business plan around a venture that relies on city incentives is like bringing on a silent (or not so silent) partner that you don't even know if they have their share of the investment.  I don't get it...

Lol, there would be even more buildings sitting empty downtown if it wasn't for incentives. Like I said, there are few (unused) residential buildings downtown, so it requires either an expensive reuse of a non-residential building or totally new construction. Our downtown housing market is no where near where it needs to be for developers and financiers to take on the risk without the city being willing to commit. And yes, it's not like that on the Southside.

Most cities with revived downtowns went through a similar cycle. The difference for, say, Charlotte or Orlando, is that the city governments stuck with it and didn't just decide to give up partway through, like we have.

[thelakelander]

We give more incentives to developers outside of downtown. Over a billion is being invested in SR 9B and the First Coast Expressway to open land up for new development. For example, there's no Bass Pro coming to town with the hundreds of millions being spent to construct SR 9B to access it. Same goes for the development at 9B and I-295 East Beltway. Also, Sleimen was recently successful in winning millions in mobility credits for a strip mall at Atlantic and Kernan.

[Tacachale]

We give more incentives to developers outside of downtown. Over a billion is being invested in SR 9B and the First Coast Expressway to open land up for new development. For example, there's no Bass Pro coming to town with the hundreds of millions being spent to construct SR 9B to access it. Same goes for the development at 9B and I-295 East Beltway.

Some of those aren't COJ project, but it sounds like an argument for balancing incentives better, rather than ending downtown incentives.

Also, Sleimen was recently successful in winning millions in mobility credits for a strip mall at Atlantic and Kernan.

Yep, $11 million from none other than Mayor Alvin "Get out of the way" Brown.

[thelakelander]

Yes. Most of the highways aren't COJ incentives but they are coordinated. Years before 9B was funded by FDOT, the then inaccessible Davis tract (which also got COJ mobility credits) had already been rezoned as commercial. We also give incentives for companies willing to relocate and expand to town regardless of if they are heading to downtown or elsewhere. I don't know why some seem to think that downtown is where most of the incentive money goes. In reality, the flow of money subsidizing private development is completely opposite.

[Noone]

The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".

"Incentives" is the main reason we have so many vacant buildings downtown now... Never in my life have I seen so many "business ventures" that were so reliant on a city "chipping in" to make their business work.  Most of the "developers" that have bought buildings downtown or planned to, always depend on getting city incentives in order to make their business work.  Then when they don't get it (for whatever reason) then the buildings just sit there forever (Laura St Trio, Barnett, The Landing, etc, etc, etc) rotting away.

And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core.  If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.

Building a business plan around a venture that relies on city incentives is like bringing on a silent (or not so silent) partner that you don't even know if they have their share of the investment.  I don't get it...

+1

[tufsu1]

And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core.  If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.

or perhaps get government to build a new highway that opens their land up.  Ever heard of E-Town Parkway? How about State Road 9B?  if not, do some research.