south Liberty Street Drama

[UNFurbanist]

Very encouraging stuff. Really seems they are looking at this like a holistic project and not just patching a hole. Talk of river access and incorporation into a courthouse project shows all the right signs.

[jaxnyc79]

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/189050-liberty-street-fix-highlights-jax-cip-budget-discussion-finance-backs-2-year-plan

Say what you want ... but this administration is off to a strong start in my opinion.

I agree.  Very happy to hear that Berkman Plaza Carcass is also being talked about.  It would be nice to see an artist's rendering of the Liberty Street and Coastline Drive plans...sounds exciting, but hard to visualize from the discussion recaps.

[thelakelander]

Nice! Kudos to the administration for developing a quick holistic solution to an ugly situation.

[jaxnyc79]

To be clear, this plan would put the old courthouse on the waterfront, yes?

[thelakelander]

^Yes.

[fsujax]

Great to see something finally being done here.

[Tacachale]

Very good to hear. Mousa has a good point about the parking deck: no matter what is done with the courthouse, that thing's going to be a dangerous liability. Considering it doesn't really have a purpose anymore, taking it out will not only improve things aesthetically, it will be a good development move as well.

[brainstormer]

I know this might be addressed on another thread, but should we even be talking about something as massive as a convention center being built on the old courthouse site? I say this because of the crumbling infrastructure and isn't the parking lot built over the river on bridges? It seems to me like a new convention center might be better placed elsewhere, and turn the old courthouse site into a smaller development, maybe even open up part of the parking lot into a small harbor with boat docks and riverside restaurants. I just wonder about the engineering feasibility of that location. Perhaps we should be putting other ideas on the table.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,24792.0/topicseen.html

I hate to toot my horn too loudly, but perhaps someone in the administration is reading MetroJax. This was a post of mine from a convention center thread.

I think this plan to get rid of the old courthouse surface lot and reconstruct the surrounding streets and riverwalk is really a smart plan. Making the courthouse site "riverfront" increases the possibility of a unique development replacing the old courthouse.

[thelakelander]

It's a great plan. That old lot is definitely an eyesore and not worth spending twice as much to rebuild it. However, I'd still recommend an convention center being built on the old courthouse site and directly connecting it to the Hyatt's ballroom level.

[brainstormer]

^ Do you think there is enough space within just the old courthouse footprint to build a decent convention center? I remember there being discussions about the need for unloading dock space, etc. We definitely want whatever is built their to embrace both Bay Street and our new "inner harbor." We certainly don't need more downtown buildings that fail to interact at street level.

[thelakelander]

For Jax's market? Yes, assuming a portion of the "convention center" includes what already exists inside the Hyatt. Build an exhibition hall, connect them via skywalk, and call it a day.

[thelakelander]

An old article and comment about potential cheap convention center options at the old courthouse site that would align with demolishing the old courthouse parking lot:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-dec-a-cheap-solution-to-jaxs-convention-center-problem



http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,24966.msg420896.html#msg420896

Dena'ina Center is the big building with the white roof covering a full Anchorage city block.

What stands out most to me is the new convention center.  It's modern, 3 stories and cost $111 million to build in 2008.  Although the exhibition hall at street level is only 47,000 square feet, I wanted to drop it to scale on the courthouse site for fun.

First, here's a few images of the new Dena'ina Center:
























It looks pretty nice.  Definitely a big step up from the Prime Osborn Convention Center. It cost $111 million to construct. However, in addition to an exhibition hall, it includes two extra floors of meeting and ballroom space. If we look at the courthouse site and assume that the Hyatt can become a part of the convention complex, we already have Grand Ballroom and meeting rooms in the Hyatt. All we really need is an exhibition hall box.


The Hyatt and courthouse blocks at the same scale as the Dena'ina Center aerial above.


The Hyatt's second level ballroom layout, along with the Dena'ina Center footprint on the old county courthouse site. The full courthouse block is highlighted in yellow.


The Dena'ina Center exhibition hall, grand lobby and "some" support space floor plan overlayed on the courthouse block. Also included is the Hyatt's second level ballroom floor.

Why do we believe it could cost $200 to $500 million to build a new convention center? Are we assuming we replicate everything the Hyatt already offers across the street, while also adding a new exhibition hall?

Why not just go with a two story box featuring an exhibition hall covering the entire block on the second floor and retail/dining space at street level, facing Bay and the river?  We should be able to get something nice completed for $100 million. It can be connected to the Hyatt's ballroom level by skywalk, basically creating a three block convention facility, all located above street level.

Then consider demolishing that failing parking deck (millions cheaper than rebuilding it) over the river, taking the money not spent on rebuilding and making a real public waterfront space that's integrated with the Hyatt, new convention center's exhibition hall and Berkman?

[downtownbrown]

I am having a sweet "I told you so" moment.  This is a great win for not only the Hyatt (I agree that the old courthouse footprint is plenty large for a convention center) but also for the Riverwalk Townhome owners.  It was never clear until this plan that they would have access to the back entrance again.  And that empty spot at the corner of Liberty and the river was once going to be a restaurant, with ample valet parking in the garage (which now sits empty).  Who knows how much better this story can get?

[brainstormer]

You have my vote, Lake. First floor-retail and dining establishments fronting Bay Street as well as the new inner harbor. Second floor-a large exhibition hall with glass walls providing beautiful views of the river and downtown. Rooftop terrace-landscaped public space with access from the Riverwalk. (Monona Terrace in Madison, WI is what I'm thinking of here.) It is designed so that sections of it can be reserved for outdoor wedding receptions, live music events, etc. Jacksonville hasn't traditionally embraced rooftop spaces. However, Blacksheep's rooftop is extremely popular, Burrito Gallery in Brooklyn Station is going to have a rooftop, and so is Cowford Chophouse downtown. Use a 2nd floor walkway to connect the exhibition hall to the Hyatt and that should about do it. A beautiful, appropriately sized convention center with connected hotel that interacts with downtown at street level and embraces the St. Johns. Perhaps Jason can work up a simple design of what's in my head. 

[Tacachale]

Additionally, a convention center could extend over the water on new likings, at least part way. I think they'd have had to do that even with the parking deck there, as the old pilings wouldn't have supported a building.