Issues remain between city, Shad Khan over The Shipyards property

[UNFurbanist]

People kill me with the score board references, and I don't see how just jags fans are the only who would benefit from the shipyards ( a large barren land on the water that's been empty for decades) being developed.

I'm not saying only jags fans benefit. I think it will be good for everyone! Khan, the city, Jacksonvillians, Jags fans all of them. Some people were sceptical that anything would happen with the land before and I'm just putting hope out there that it will because It makes good business sense for Khan to develope it. I just think the deal has to be right and not totally bend the city over. Although that seems to be common so even if it does happen at least we'll get a pretty waterfront development. And honestly who knows what Curry will do. Ya pro business republicans love corporate welfare but I see glimmers of hope with Curry that financial sanity is also important. We'll just have to wait and see.

Hiddentrack +100

[Papa33]

I can't help but think (with really no basis, though), that there is some Kahn v. Rummell race to develop and that if the mayor had to take sides, we all know which side he'll take.  Kahn may not care about what Rummell is doing, but I gotta think that Rummell cares about Kahn is doing.

[Gunnar]

The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.

It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.

If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.

The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?

[hiddentrack]

The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.

It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.

If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.

The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?

No, but the city wouldn't own the Shipyards after they do the work themselves and then sell off the property piece by piece either.

My main point about hiring someone else to do the work is that you're making a decision about whether or not you're capable of or willing to doing the work yourself. If you're not, then are you willing to pay someone for what you save in time and stress, and if so, how much are you willing to fork over for that?

At the end of the negotiations, the city may they think they get a better deal bearing all the costs of preparing the property for sale and keeping all the proceeds from those sales. If they're successful at it, great! Maybe it could turn into a model for what they do with other abandoned and crumbling properties downtown.

[RattlerGator]

People kill me with the score board references

Agreed. It's a bit maddening. And the responses to the terms of this first proposal, as if they've never heard of an initial offer made for the specific purpose of inviting a counter. Or the very subjective caricature of Republicans as only interested in the rich.

Sigh.

For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A, I wouldn't say cutthroat but . . . you may be right. And that wouldn't be a bad thing to me. This is a problem property that *shouldn't* be a problem property. It's going to take a man like Shad and his crew, however, to deliver the desired transition (given that it has been sitting there for years with nothing to show of the deep desire locally to have it developed).

[thelakelander]

The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.

It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.

If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.

The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?

No, but the city wouldn't own the Shipyards after they do the work themselves and then sell off the property piece by piece either.

My main point about hiring someone else to do the work is that you're making a decision about whether or not you're capable of or willing to doing the work yourself. If you're not, then are you willing to pay someone for what you save in time and stress, and if so, how much are you willing to fork over for that?

At the end of the negotiations, the city may they think they get a better deal bearing all the costs of preparing the property for sale and keeping all the proceeds from those sales. If they're successful at it, great! Maybe it could turn into a model for what they do with other abandoned and crumbling properties downtown.

As of the initial proposal, there would be little to no proceeds for COJ.....other than having a developed property to look at and enjoy. If I read things correctly, Iguana wants COJ to give the land for free. Whatever profit Iguana makes from flipping enhanced land to other developers, it would keep. Ultimately, whatever money COJ throws into this, it will be that much less that can be spent on other projects like the Trio, Landing, etc.

[Gunnar]

Plus, taxed earned from the property would also have to be reinvested into it by the City, correct ?

[thelakelander]

^That's what it sounds like.

[hiddentrack]

As of the initial proposal, there would be little to no proceeds for COJ.....other than having a developed property to look at and enjoy. If I read things correctly, Iguana wants COJ to give the land for free. Whatever profit Iguana makes from flipping enhanced land to other developers, it would keep. Ultimately, whatever money COJ throws into this, it will be that much less that can be spent on other projects like the Trio, Landing, etc.

I guess I'm not looking at these early proposals like they're written in stone. There's going to be a lot more back and forth on this, which is when the real details are going to be agreed upon. I don't see any scenario where these initial proposals are forced on the city.

Iguana seems to have a vision for the site whereas the city doesn't seem capable of handling the project. Maybe they can prove me wrong. Like I said, that'd be fine with me! If the city moves ahead with Iguana, then I hope they manage to negotiate some things in our favor. A few quick options I'd see as starting points:

Option 1: Iguana gets the land for free and pays to clean it up themselves. They keep the money for any parcels of land sold to other developers.

Option 2: Iguana pays the city a fair price for contaminated land. The city cleans up the site. Iguana gives the city a portion of the proceeds from any parcels sold to other developers.

Option 3: The city cleans up the site. Iguana pays a fair price for remediated land and keeps the proceeds from any parcels sold to other developers. Iguana shuts up about how property taxes are spent at the site.

[thelakelander]

Like the posh conceptual renderings Iguana released in February, I agree that what's in the initial proposal will change when it's all said and done.  I also believe that whatever public money goes into getting the shipyards off the ground will come at the expense of other deserving downtown projects.  Unfortunately, we just don't have the funds to subsidize all of them.

[ProjectMaximus]

The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.

It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.

If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.

The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?

No, but the city wouldn't own the Shipyards after they do the work themselves and then sell off the property piece by piece either.

My main point about hiring someone else to do the work is that you're making a decision about whether or not you're capable of or willing to doing the work yourself. If you're not, then are you willing to pay someone for what you save in time and stress, and if so, how much are you willing to fork over for that?

At the end of the negotiations, the city may they think they get a better deal bearing all the costs of preparing the property for sale and keeping all the proceeds from those sales. If they're successful at it, great! Maybe it could turn into a model for what they do with other abandoned and crumbling properties downtown.

Your main point makes sense, except that Khan is not a developer at all. He's just a billionaire. So I may not want to deal with the hassle of a home remodel, but I wouldn't hire Wayne Weaver to do it. I would hire an actual general contractor...

[mtraininjax]

However the ownership and cleanup and all the other BS shake out, Khan's proposal is the only real one and it will eventually get done. Its good for him, good for Jacksonville and its the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.

[vicupstate]

However the ownership and cleanup and all the other BS shake out, Khan's proposal is the only real one and it will eventually get done. Its good for him, good for Jacksonville and its the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Unlike if Brown had won re-election, there is now a Mayor that must run for re-election, and this deal couldn't possibly be more one-sided against the city.  If I understand it correctly, Khan's proposal is that he gets the land for free, the remediation for free, and all the taxes generated are invested either into his pocket or into the property itself (either way he will benefit).  Lastly , he gets to keep all profits.  There also doesn't seem to be a timetable or any guarantees on when he must complete the development.

If the city would do a RFP with all of the above stipulated, there would be other bidders. It has never done that.   

[Tacachale]

Sam Mousa is in charge of the deal on the city's end, so we're in good hands in that regard. Clearly the project was proposed to be as favorable to Khan as possible, and negotiations wouldn't have gone much farther under the previous administration. Now the city has the opportunity to negotiate a better deal from the people's end while still getting a good project going that will benefit Khan as well as the rest of Downtown and the city.

Clearly Khan won't accept any deal he thinks won't be good for him, and we should want a successful project due to how big it will be for downtown. As per Hiddentrack's comments, here's my opinion here are some things I'd want from the city's end:

1.The city pays for cleanup, as we will have to do that no matter what. If additional cleanup is needed later, the city and Iguana can split the cost or Iguana can do it themselves.
2. We give reasonable other concessions to Iguana along with guarantees that something actually gets built or the property comes right back to us. Either Iguana pays a fair price for the land, or we factor the value of the property into other concessions that are made.
3. Tax revenues generated by the development aren't tied only to that site, that's crazy. But perhaps tying them to greater Downtown would be appropriate.

[vicupstate]

Sam Mousa is in charge of the deal on the city's end, so we're in good hands in that regard. Clearly the project was proposed to be as favorable to Khan as possible, and negotiations wouldn't have gone much farther under the previous administration. Now the city has the opportunity to negotiate a better deal from the people's end while still getting a good project going that will benefit Khan as well as the rest of Downtown and the city.

Clearly Khan won't accept any deal he thinks won't be good for him, and we should want a successful project due to how big it will be for downtown. As per Hiddentrack's comments, here's my opinion here are some things I'd want from the city's end:

1.The city pays for cleanup, as we will have to do that no matter what. If additional cleanup is needed later, the city and Iguana can split the cost or Iguana can do it themselves.
2. We give reasonable other concessions to Iguana along with guarantees that something actually gets built or the property comes right back to us. Either Iguana pays a fair price for the land, or we factor the value of the property into other concessions that are made.
3. Tax revenues generated by the development aren't tied only to that site, that's crazy. But perhaps tying them to greater Downtown would be appropriate.

Number 3 is already in place as things stand now. The area is already in the Northbank TIF, so any increased tax revenues will go to pay existing and future debts of that area (which goes far beyond the Shipyards property, but fully within the DT Northbank).  Of course that assumes the city itself does not 'rob' from the TIF, as it has done in the past.  What Khan is proposing is that the new revenues be only invested in the Shipyards site only.