JaxPort considers scaled-back, cheaper dredging plan

[thelakelander]

Critics call Jaxport's proposal to deepen shorter span of St. Johns a 'desperate' move

The Jacksonville Port Authority's consideration of a truncated deepening project — which would only span 11 miles of the St. Johns River rather than 13 — has some prominent critics of the project questioning whether dredging is still worth the effort.

Shortening the project by two miles would save nearly $200 million, which could make it more attractive for federal funding. But ending the deeper channel at Blount Island rather than Dames Point would require the tenant most in need of deeper water — TraPac, whose terminal at Dames Point handles containers from Asia — to relocate to Blount Island.

Doing so would kick off a cascading effect, with other tenants needing to move in turn. The logistical gymnastics may reaffirm the questions critics have been positing since its authorization was fast-tracked.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/07/14/critics-call-jaxports-proposal-to-deepen-shorter.html

[The_Choose_1]

Critics call Jaxport's proposal to deepen shorter span of St. Johns a 'desperate' move

The Jacksonville Port Authority's consideration of a truncated deepening project — which would only span 11 miles of the St. Johns River rather than 13 — has some prominent critics of the project questioning whether dredging is still worth the effort.

Shortening the project by two miles would save nearly $200 million, which could make it more attractive for federal funding. But ending the deeper channel at Blount Island rather than Dames Point would require the tenant most in need of deeper water — TraPac, whose terminal at Dames Point handles containers from Asia — to relocate to Blount Island.

Doing so would kick off a cascading effect, with other tenants needing to move in turn. The logistical gymnastics may reaffirm the questions critics have been positing since its authorization was fast-tracked.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/07/14/critics-call-jaxports-proposal-to-deepen-shorter.html

I find these Critics to be wrong IMO. Do an intimate domain on the people living across from Dames Point and turn that area into a new Trapac site? Wait Reed Island should be the new Trapac site then build a bridge for the employees and trucks to come and go from the island and hook the bridge into the dames point bridge. Or remove the Dames point bridge with one for a higher span?

[spuwho]

^ New York, Norfolk, and either Charleston, Savannah, or Jax.....an argument repeated by our boosters is that Jax is the most western city on the east coast, providing easy access to the midwest....sorry but Savannah and Charleston can serve that better...and honestly, shipments to the Great Lakes region are likely to come from/go to Norfolk or NYC

There are some issues in this.

Port of Charleston & Savannah has a single track supplier of rail (CSX) and all freight out of this dock has to traverse the Atlanta rail hub, where it has to be humped and sorted for its destinations.  It is not a one drop delivery. Jacksonville does not have this limitation,

NS has been improving their Norfolk transit times with their "Gateway" project which has been adding capacity between Virginia ports and their midwest yards in Ohio and Kentucky.

CSX has had an ongoing capex spend to increase capacity on their direct route between Jacksonville & Chicago. The problem is they want to route everything between the two cities via Queeensgate Yard in Cincy, which is overwhelmed. For reasons unknown they have been reluctant to use alternate routing.

The other item of note is knowing where the domestic shipper hubs are in Florida.

Orlando is a major UPS hub.  There is no hiding the fact that FEC is going to leverage the AAF line between Port Canaveral or Miami and the new Orlando yard and freight center that is about to be built.

Asian shippers take 2-3 years to align their containers to meet a new rail delivery requirement.  A good example was the Port of Indianapolis. They used to get Asian goods via Chicago by truck.  After several years of working the details, CN and Indiana Railroad finally worked a deal where cargo was staged in China, shipped to Prince Rupert, BC (not Long Beach, CA) and shipped directly to the Senate Avenue Yard in downtown,  This took off 2-3 weeks of shipping time off the delivery.

The other issue Asian shippers have is where can they make the most money on return loads.  They hate sending empty containers back to Asia,  Where in the Eastern US has the best opportunity to have "return"? Jacksonville, with access to 2 trancon rail providers probably has the best option for return. Volkswagen certainly thinks so, that's why they picked us. Offload the imported VW's and parts, load up the US made ones and head to Europe. The ship will always generate revenue.

Indianapolis is surprising people because they are generating way more "return" than anyone expected. Soy, Farm and wood products going back to Asia makes it a very profitable exercise for all involved.  Savannah has a large return because they export farm and wood products. There are several wood additive products made in Georgia that are exported to Europe to help their power generation plants reduce emissions.

Jacksonville can't just think about what is coming in the door. They also have to think how easy they are getting it "out the door".

Overall, cutting the spend on the dredge makes me concerned on any shortcuts taken on remediation.

[Tacachale]

^ New York, Norfolk, and either Charleston, Savannah, or Jax.....an argument repeated by our boosters is that Jax is the most western city on the east coast, providing easy access to the midwest....sorry but Savannah and Charleston can serve that better...and honestly, shipments to the Great Lakes region are likely to come from/go to Norfolk or NYC

There are some issues in this.

Port of Charleston & Savannah has a single track supplier of rail (CSX) and all freight out of this dock has to traverse the Atlanta rail hub, where it has to be humped and sorted for its destinations.  It is not a one drop delivery. Jacksonville does not have this limitation,

NS has been improving their Norfolk transit times with their "Gateway" project which has been adding capacity between Virginia ports and their midwest yards in Ohio and Kentucky.

CSX has had an ongoing capex spend to increase capacity on their direct route between Jacksonville & Chicago. The problem is they want to route everything between the two cities via Queeensgate Yard in Cincy, which is overwhelmed. For reasons unknown they have been reluctant to use alternate routing.

The other item of note is knowing where the domestic shipper hubs are in Florida.

Orlando is a major UPS hub.  There is no hiding the fact that FEC is going to leverage the AAF line between Port Canaveral or Miami and the new Orlando yard and freight center that is about to be built.

Asian shippers take 2-3 years to align their containers to meet a new rail delivery requirement.  A good example was the Port of Indianapolis. They used to get Asian goods via Chicago by truck.  After several years of working the details, CN and Indiana Railroad finally worked a deal where cargo was staged in China, shipped to Prince Rupert, BC (not Long Beach, CA) and shipped directly to the Senate Avenue Yard in downtown,  This took off 2-3 weeks of shipping time off the delivery.

The other issue Asian shippers have is where can they make the most money on return loads.  They hate sending empty containers back to Asia,  Where in the Eastern US has the best opportunity to have "return"? Jacksonville, with access to 2 trancon rail providers probably has the best option for return. Volkswagen certainly thinks so, that's why they picked us. Offload the imported VW's and parts, load up the US made ones and head to Europe. The ship will always generate revenue.

Indianapolis is surprising people because they are generating way more "return" than anyone expected. Soy, Farm and wood products going back to Asia makes it a very profitable exercise for all involved.  Savannah has a large return because they export farm and wood products. There are several wood additive products made in Georgia that are exported to Europe to help their power generation plants reduce emissions.

Jacksonville can't just think about what is coming in the door. They also have to think how easy they are getting it "out the door".

Overall, cutting the spend on the dredge makes me concerned on any shortcuts taken on remediation.

Excellent post, spuwho.

[ProjectMaximus]

Thanks for the details and explanation, spuwho. Definitely helped my understanding immensely.

[thelakelander]

I'm pretty sure the Port of Savannah's ICTF is tied into both CSX and NS already.

[vicupstate]

Port of Charleston & Savannah has a single track supplier of rail (CSX) and all freight out of this dock has to traverse the Atlanta rail hub, where it has to be humped and sorted for its destinations.

Norfolk Southern ships from the Charleston port as well.

[The_Choose_1]

^ New York, Norfolk, and either Charleston, Savannah, or Jax.....an argument repeated by our boosters is that Jax is the most western city on the east coast, providing easy access to the midwest....sorry but Savannah and Charleston can serve that better...and honestly, shipments to the Great Lakes region are likely to come from/go to Norfolk or NYC

There are some issues in this.

Port of Charleston & Savannah has a single track supplier of rail (CSX) and all freight out of this dock has to traverse the Atlanta rail hub, where it has to be humped and sorted for its destinations.  It is not a one drop delivery. Jacksonville does not have this limitation,

NS has been improving their Norfolk transit times with their "Gateway" project which has been adding capacity between Virginia ports and their midwest yards in Ohio and Kentucky.

CSX has had an ongoing capex spend to increase capacity on their direct route between Jacksonville & Chicago. The problem is they want to route everything between the two cities via Queeensgate Yard in Cincy, which is overwhelmed. For reasons unknown they have been reluctant to use alternate routing.

The other item of note is knowing where the domestic shipper hubs are in Florida.

Orlando is a major UPS hub.  There is no hiding the fact that FEC is going to leverage the AAF line between Port Canaveral or Miami and the new Orlando yard and freight center that is about to be built.

Asian shippers take 2-3 years to align their containers to meet a new rail delivery requirement.  A good example was the Port of Indianapolis. They used to get Asian goods via Chicago by truck.  After several years of working the details, CN and Indiana Railroad finally worked a deal where cargo was staged in China, shipped to Prince Rupert, BC (not Long Beach, CA) and shipped directly to the Senate Avenue Yard in downtown,  This took off 2-3 weeks of shipping time off the delivery.

The other issue Asian shippers have is where can they make the most money on return loads.  They hate sending empty containers back to Asia,  Where in the Eastern US has the best opportunity to have "return"? Jacksonville, with access to 2 trancon rail providers probably has the best option for return. Volkswagen certainly thinks so, that's why they picked us. Offload the imported VW's and parts, load up the US made ones and head to Europe. The ship will always generate revenue.

Indianapolis is surprising people because they are generating way more "return" than anyone expected. Soy, Farm and wood products going back to Asia makes it a very profitable exercise for all involved.  Savannah has a large return because they export farm and wood products. There are several wood additive products made in Georgia that are exported to Europe to help their power generation plants reduce emissions.

Jacksonville can't just think about what is coming in the door. They also have to think how easy they are getting it "out the door".

Overall, cutting the spend on the dredge makes me concerned on any shortcuts taken on remediation.

I disagree with this statement of yours "Jacksonville can't just think about what is coming in the door. They also have to think how easy they are getting it "out the door"." Is this a guess on your part? Or based on fact.

[thelakelander]

http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/shipping-options/intermodal/why-norfolk-southern-intermodal/port-connectivity.html

[thelakelander]

Interesting map from a midwestern logistics hub:


http://rickenbackerinlandport.com/files/rail/lck-rail-map-fa.jpg

[spuwho]

^ New York, Norfolk, and either Charleston, Savannah, or Jax.....an argument repeated by our boosters is that Jax is the most western city on the east coast, providing easy access to the midwest....sorry but Savannah and Charleston can serve that better...and honestly, shipments to the Great Lakes region are likely to come from/go to Norfolk or NYC

There are some issues in this.

Port of Charleston & Savannah has a single track supplier of rail (CSX) and all freight out of this dock has to traverse the Atlanta rail hub, where it has to be humped and sorted for its destinations.  It is not a one drop delivery. Jacksonville does not have this limitation,

NS has been improving their Norfolk transit times with their "Gateway" project which has been adding capacity between Virginia ports and their midwest yards in Ohio and Kentucky.

CSX has had an ongoing capex spend to increase capacity on their direct route between Jacksonville & Chicago. The problem is they want to route everything between the two cities via Queeensgate Yard in Cincy, which is overwhelmed. For reasons unknown they have been reluctant to use alternate routing.

The other item of note is knowing where the domestic shipper hubs are in Florida.

Orlando is a major UPS hub.  There is no hiding the fact that FEC is going to leverage the AAF line between Port Canaveral or Miami and the new Orlando yard and freight center that is about to be built.

Asian shippers take 2-3 years to align their containers to meet a new rail delivery requirement.  A good example was the Port of Indianapolis. They used to get Asian goods via Chicago by truck.  After several years of working the details, CN and Indiana Railroad finally worked a deal where cargo was staged in China, shipped to Prince Rupert, BC (not Long Beach, CA) and shipped directly to the Senate Avenue Yard in downtown,  This took off 2-3 weeks of shipping time off the delivery.

The other issue Asian shippers have is where can they make the most money on return loads.  They hate sending empty containers back to Asia,  Where in the Eastern US has the best opportunity to have "return"? Jacksonville, with access to 2 trancon rail providers probably has the best option for return. Volkswagen certainly thinks so, that's why they picked us. Offload the imported VW's and parts, load up the US made ones and head to Europe. The ship will always generate revenue.

Indianapolis is surprising people because they are generating way more "return" than anyone expected. Soy, Farm and wood products going back to Asia makes it a very profitable exercise for all involved.  Savannah has a large return because they export farm and wood products. There are several wood additive products made in Georgia that are exported to Europe to help their power generation plants reduce emissions.

Jacksonville can't just think about what is coming in the door. They also have to think how easy they are getting it "out the door".

Overall, cutting the spend on the dredge makes me concerned on any shortcuts taken on remediation.

I disagree with this statement of yours "Jacksonville can't just think about what is coming in the door. They also have to think how easy they are getting it "out the door"." Is this a guess on your part? Or based on fact.

What facts on profit would you like?

Oceanic shippers love it when they bring in containers full, and they can bring the containers back full.  If a port can provide more full containers in return as opposed to empties, that makes that port more profitable to them and one they want to service. 

My point is, the more Jacksonville fosters exports, just as much as imports, makes us collectively a more desirable port to work with.

The Port of Indianapolis is a perfect example. Once shippers realized how many containers could come back full it became a no brainer.

[spuwho]

http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/shipping-options/intermodal/why-norfolk-southern-intermodal/port-connectivity.html

Good map and interesting. I read a story last year about shippers bellyaching that CSX only had a single track main between Charleston and Atlanta and it was causing heartburn because products were getting delayed in the Atlanta classification yard constantly. The article said that NS was a "non-player" in Charleston port logistics.  Guess it was wrong or "non-player" just meant the presence wasn't very strong.

[thelakelander]

From what I can tell, NS is a bigger player for containers at Savannah. The NS facility at Charleston's Marine Terminal is primarily for automobiles. It would benefit JaxPort to somehow attempt to find a way to establish an intermodal yard with direct access to not only CSX, but also NS and FEC.

[The_Choose_1]

From what I can tell, NS is a bigger player for containers at Savannah. The NS facility at Charleston's Marine Terminal is primarily for automobiles. It would benefit JaxPort to somehow attempt to find a way to establish an intermodal yard with direct access to not only CSX, but also NS and FEC.

NS does have a direct access to Jaxport. NS trains run everyday to deliver fuel additives, autoracks for Toyota and other rail cargo. The trains leave Simpson Yard at Old Kings Road and run parallel to US 1 20th street aka MLK Blvd. All the way to the Genesee & Wyoming short line railroad. Also known as Talleyrand Terminal Railroad "The TTR was acquired by Genesee & Wyoming in 1996." Then Norfolk Southern takes it's own rail freight and delivers it to chemical companies in Longbranch. And very soon once the new railroad tracks are in place to Keystone Properties. CSX also takes just about the same route to deliver it's rail freight to Jaxport but it comes from their main yard in Moncrief. And FEC freight is delivered over the St Johns River both by Norfolk Southern & CSX. Norfolk Southern in the near future is changing the layout of its Simpson Yard. And the semi's that drop off and pick up trailers easier for them to get into the new yard. Jacksonville isn't asleep when it comes to moving freight.

[thelakelander]

NS and FEC don't have access to the Dames Point or Blount Island terminals. Dredging is only being considered for those two, not Talleyrand.