JTA assesses Skyway; mulls where to go next

[fieldafm]

The new Siemans fleet in Frisco is rated at up to 9%. In the past lines in the Bay area and in Pittsburgh operated at double digit grading, albeit with completely different equipment than what is industry standard nowadays.   



Picture of Baltimore's LRT which reaches the 6% territory in certain sections.



Picture of Salt Lake City's LRT which manages close to 7% at the big S curve transition area.


What's the Acosta rated at?  Is the JTA study going to do a cost/benefit of the maintenance costs for rubber tired uses versus a true steel/steel configuration? Are they going to also consider a possible retrofit for electric trolley busses? (its concievable that a trolleybus system could be designed to incorporate off-wire uses in parts of Riverside/San Marco, no?)

[Lunican]

I think the Acosta is 6%.

[fieldafm]

Sounds like grading isn't a limitation then... but perhaps a comparison between maintenance costs if you are going away from systems that use rubber tires would be a big difference?

[ProjectMaximus]

None of the systems I described are interchangeable. They just happen to be automoted. Retrofitting the Skyway into either would require just as much of a rebuild as going to streetcar. Outside of an airport tram, we'll have to search long and hard to find something very similar to the Skyway that American cities are investing in today. This is one of its biggest problems. It's so unique they don't even make parts for it anymore.

I figured as much. What I had no idea was that the original skyway wasn't monorail. So we spent millions to upgrade the system in the 90s into an even more outdated mode? Fantastic...

[thelakelander]

Other considerations would be minimum turning radius, vertical clearance, the type of service/frequencies desired, etc. Here's a pretty decent comparison chart of transit technologies from Kimberly Horn:

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

None of the systems I described are interchangeable. They just happen to be automoted. Retrofitting the Skyway into either would require just as much of a rebuild as going to streetcar. Outside of an airport tram, we'll have to search long and hard to find something very similar to the Skyway that American cities are investing in today. This is one of its biggest problems. It's so unique they don't even make parts for it anymore.

I figured as much. What I had no idea was that the original skyway wasn't monorail. So we spent millions to upgrade the system in the 90s into an even more outdated mode? Fantastic...

Because....  Planning!

[thelakelander]

The chart shows a major problem with the Skyway's cost whenever we start talking about expanding (much less, updating something already pretty much obsolete). Such a system cost just as much per mile as building a freaking heavy rail system (ex. DC Metro, NYC Subway, Atlanta's MARTA, etc.). That's a ton of cash for something that doesn't have the capacity to serve an event like One Spark, much less a regular Jags game. At ground zero, for the same cost you can get twice as much LRT, 3 times as much modern streetcar, and 6 times as much heritage streetcar. However, with those systems, you can easily add extra cars when needed.

Depending on how much cash a community has the play with, the selection of technology can easily determine if you end up with a project taking you from a seldom used convention center to a seldom used parking deck or one that serves DT will penetrating places like Springfield, Riverside and San Marco.

[spuwho]

For those wondering how the Skyway can be "obsolete"  technology. ......the Skyway is based on UM (former Universal Mobility) Model III design. UM was bought out by Bombardier right about the time JTA decided to drop Matra as the primary contractor.

Bombardier doesnt manufacture the UM products anymore. Most of their current monorail designs are based on the Innovia which is a more modern version of  the Mark IV which is what is used at Disney.

Clearly the supporting infra of the Skyway was overdesigned and could support larger duty car sets. The question remaains if there is a longer articulated car that can negotiate the Acosta and the turns along the route.

An interview with a sales person at Bombardier would be great right now.

[Sonic101]

Does the price on that chart exclude right of way? AGT seems to be the only one that doesn't mention that it excludes it.

[Jason]

I'm still convinced that the Skyway needs to be expanded to include the originally planned terminus locations of Brooklyn, San Marco, Sports Complex, and Shands Hospital.  All of these nodes can be easily reached without detracting from the neighborhoods and would allow most of the residents of downtown to get around without having to use their cars as much.  THEN streetcars can interlace the historic neighborhoods and all join together athe JRTC.

BUT, the only way the Skyway will ever be used to its full capacity is to have it tied into a region wide system using LRT or commuter rail.  Only then will it be utilized by people outside of downtown.

[thelakelander]

^Short of bringing the Skyway up-to-date, we'd be looking at spending at least another $100-$150 million to reach these areas. Even with that, it would still struggle with ridership without us investing hundreds of millions more in something that serves all the places it would miss. Unfortunately, assuming we did that and fed the thing with additional riders, it still would not have the capacity to handle crowds at the sport complex. Unfortunately, we can't count on commuter rail to really feed it either. If similar to Sunrail, it would generate less ridership than the Skyway does now. Sunrail is a little over 4k riders/day despite being over 30 miles long in length. When we first launched MJ in 2006, I was a big Skyway expansion proponent. As my knowledge and understanding of our landscape, our politics, the Skyway's costs, and other available modes has grown, I've reached the point where I believe we need to take a long and hard look at its future. At the end of the day, we can only beat a dead horse for so long.

[acme54321]

I don't think someone that wants to ride from say Avondale to Springfield is going to want to get on a streetcar, transfer to the skyway, then transfer back to a streetcar.  Too much work to ride a few miles.  I think it would make a lot more sense to have a streetcar line from Fairfax to the Sports district, and one from San Marco to Springfield.  One possible transfer in the middle.

[tufsu1]

^ if there was a streetcar line from Avondale to Springfield, it would go through downtown...as such, folks would not be required to transfer to the Skyway.  In fact, having the Skyway go up Hogan Street and a streetcar say up Newnan might make a lot of sense.

[tufsu1]

Sunrail is a little over 4k riders/day despite being over 30 miles long in length.

and they recently announced (shockingly) that the Feds denied New Starts funding for the 11 mile northern extension to Deland because estimates  showed only 200 riders a day on the segment!

[Coolyfett]

I was in Jacksonville this weekend, I was surprised to see the Skyway running on aSaturday....did they change the scheduling? Streetcar is an ok idea, but the Skyway needs to be extended to places and development near stations should be encouraged. Why is this not happening yet?