Jacksonville BRT - Like 3 Card Monte - Only Cheaper!

[southsider1015]

I really feel this is going to really hurt skyway ridership and set us back from serious mass transit for another 20 years.  This is what are bus service should have been initially.

I think the Skyway will be fine if these things are done:

1. JTA makes a strong effort at getting TOD at all of the land around their Skyway stations.

2. JTA bite the bullet and pay for a Skyway extension to Brooklyn.

3. JTA/COJ work with adjacent communities to extend the Skyway to areas where it makes sense, like to Atlantic Blvd. in San Marco.

4. Keep the Skyway free fare.

You nailed it.  Add the stadium station, and we might have a decent system that people would really use.

[thelakelander]

I agree that Commuter Rail (NOT THE SAME THING AS LIGHT-RAIL OR STREETCAR) is going to look a lot like the Music City Star, but I would suggest this is one place where our typical minimalism is warranted. Right down to the 120' foot station platforms, the train and it's stations should NOT look any fancier then what they are building on the current so-called 'BRT' (which I think means = 'Better Regional Transit' in Jacksonville). Toss in attractive, well lit, park-and-ride lots.

Commuter rail will not butt heads with Amtrak or AAF, those improvements in the physical plant will certainly benefit all comers. Typically with several more stops then Amtrak and probably a lot more stops then AAF, they will probably only share stations in downtown and St. Augustine. Even with that shared area, Amtrak/AAF fares will be more and usually when it could steal revenue from a local commuter operation they'll be footnoting their schedules with lines like:

AAF does not carry local passengers between Jacksonville and St. Augustine on the 4 PM or 7 PM trains.
AAF does not carry local passengers between St. Augustine and Jacksonville on the 9 AM train.   

Amtrak carries passengers between Jacksonville and St. Augustine that originate or terminate their trips at Savannah or points north thereof or at Deland and points south thereof.

This by the way is quite the normal way it's done.

I believe we could easily match the Music City's numbers on the SE corridor and we should exceed it on the SW corridor. I don't think the north corridor as as suitable for commuter rail as it is a conversion to Light-Rail with nocturnal or limited/restricted midday freight service.

I guess the way I see it is that there's no unlimited flow of cash to invest in rail all over the place.  If the FEC corridor only generates Music City Star type ridership (1,225 riders a day), it may be better to invest first in another corridor that doesn't have three separate systems providing some type of service to it. For example, I'd rather take that $100 million and put it into something on the CSX A line between DT and Clay or the North corridor between DT and Nassau.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake Rapid Streetcar (also called ultra-light-rail) between Jacksonville Terminal along the 'S' to Gateway would be an excellent Rail Starter. If we did URL and tied it to streetcar downtown (Downtown-Riverside) then go ahead and develop REAL BRT to the west side via Blanding we'd be on a fantastic roll again. The streetcar/URL vehicles could be fully route interchangeable even if one ran modern cars most of the time and the other Heritage Trolleys.

I personally think a route along Post-Cassat-Blanding would be superior as the POST-NORMANDY-CASSAT intersection would kick open a door to future routes on Normandy, Lane, Edgewood and Lenox-Old Middleburg. A route along Post in Murray Hill that scored at least Bronze Level on the international BRT Standard and hopefully Silver Level would, I am confident REMAKE MURRAY HILL.

I agree and if you'll recall our conversations with TUFSU1 and others, I have NEVER supported the FEC corridor first. The CSX 'A line' is superior as a starter and has no competing freeway to either NAS or Downtown. Our chance at being multimodal is better if the BRT to the westside is rolling and the northside/downtown/Riverside Rapid Streetcar, and we get some Skyway extension in at least 3 directions (though baby steps are fine with me).

Once REAL BRT and REAL ELECTRIC RAIL have shown their metal, I'm pretty sure we won't even be having a 'commuter rail' conversation. That 'A' line was once double track all the way to just north of Wells Road. State purchase of the corridor (something likely anyway) should make an ideal ready made corridor for a great, single track with passing sidings, electric rail line. Park and Ride at Kingsley, Wells, Timuquana and finally around San Juan/Park/Hamilton/Plymouth area would knock em dead. Trains (electric cars) would interchange with BRT at Park and again at Post, they could turn and run down King into downtown, or use a cutoff along the 'A' into the old terminal.

I believe Bill Bishop and Lori Boyer understand the savings we would achieve, for the others here's a primer:







In my next BRT piece we'll look into why we have to think bigger and act.

[spuwho]

Hey Ock,

I found a new form of BRT for you.  Just like JTA says, its a train on rubber wheels!!



Actually its 2 F-units bought by Iowa Pacific last month, but the connecting rail line was pulled up so they had to truck the engines 40 miles to a rail yard.

[Ocklawaha]

Ha! ha! Yeah, Ed (Ellis) is building an empire. Talk about your wheeler dealers, if the dude was a woman he could breastfeed a scorpion. He's invested in Colombia (Atlantic RR concession) as well as shortlines in the Permian Basin. These engines are no doubt for his pet project, private passenger rail. He's trying to sell Oklahoma on the idea, and was in the Indiana project but underbid. These classic passenger engines are getting rare indeed.