Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month. Torture Issue Blows Up.

[finehoe]

Cheney literally cannot travel to Europe because he is wanted for War Crimes.

Yet he's doubling-down:

"Cheney said he still stands behind the post-9/11 interrogation program, "and if I had to do it over again, I would do it." Cheney made that same comment in March 2014, saying "the results speak for themselves" and denying that practices like waterboarding are torture.

While promoting his book in 2011, Cheney said he has "no regrets" about the use of waterboarding."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/world/dismissing-senate-report-cheney-defends-cia-interrogations.html

[bill]

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/12/col-wilkerson-dick-cheney-fully-informed

I share the anger Col. Wilkerson gets across during his interview with Chris Hayes about the lies and misdirection in the CIA torture program. Wilkerson was visibly angry during the entire interview, but nowhere was that more evident than when he pointed the finger directly at Cheney at the end.

Here's the transcript, but the video says it all.

HAYES: There's one thing that struck me in this report that I have to ask you about. This is in the summary that we got today.

An internal CIA email from July 2003 noted that "...the WH [White House] is extremely concerned that Secretary Powell would blow his stack if he were to be briefed on what's been going on."

You were working for Secretary Powell at that time. Your reaction to that.

WILKERSON: I'm sure that's probably the case. I got to see him -- I worked for him for twelve years and I got to see him blow his stack worse than he'd ever blown it before at the CIA with George Tenet and John McLaughlin, because he sensed what was being done to him.

He took me into a room and told me to cut about 25 percent of the presentation he was supposed to give out. Told me to take it out because it was worthless. He was even worried that it wasn't accurate.

And then within a few minutes George Tenet showed up with the spellbinding news that high level Al Qaeda operatives had revealed under interrogation, he said -- no revealing that he was being tortured at the time -- that he'd revealed significant contacts between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's operatives in Baghdad.

This was a flat-out lie. We later learned it was Sheik Al-Libi, we learned he was being tortured, no US personnel were even present, and that in a week to ten days he recanted what he'd given under torture.

So this is the kind of thing that was happening when I was out at the CIA for five days and nights with these people who are now trying to tell the American people that they are competent and they were telling the truth.


We all have to wear the taint Richard Bruce Cheney brought down on us

Taint is tough, try oxyclean.

[finehoe]

Why are they not releasing the results of these interrogations?

Because there were none.

The Senate investigation reveals some dreadful practices that, contrary to the CIA's protestations, have probably done little to enhance America's safety. Will the agency change its approach? The omens are not good. Before the 9/11 attacks, the CIA had already determined from its own experience that coercive interrogations "do not produce intelligence" and "will probably result in false answers". It didn't take long for it to ignore those conclusions.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26685-that-cia-torture-methods-were-pointless-is-no-shock.html#.VIjkrDHF-So

[fsquid]

Waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation" techniques did not become "torture" until somebody figured out that making them so was a source catchy sound bytes.

This report really doesn't change anything, those that think it was torture will still think that.  Those who don't, will continue to think that.

[ben says]

Not about to read 22 pages of this thread, but I gotta ask

Is there anyone on this forum who still maintains the USA is not a human rights violator and should be held accountable by the ICC?

I mean really...it's SO fucking hypocritical to say a damn thing about Iran, Russia, or China (not only in light of the CIA report, but especially considering we have more people incarcerated than all of them)

[fsquid]

haha, the Japaneesee version of waterboarding was much much worse than ours.  The 'water boarding' technique used by the Japanese could kill you. The technique used in SARS and on detainees will make your life miserable but won't end it

[fsquid]

Not about to read 22 pages of this thread, but I gotta ask

Is there anyone on this forum who still maintains the USA is not a human rights violator and should be held accountable by the ICC?

I mean really...it's SO fucking hypocritical to say a damn thing about Iran, Russia, or China (not only in light of the CIA report, but especially considering we have more people incarcerated than all of them)

We're trying to come in after the fact and self-impose a moral standard that much of the world, including the part where the subject events are taking place, simply does not buy. What we need is worldwide bright-line agreement on where the line is, and then abide by that line going forward. What we have is an agreement that is subject to a wide range of interpretation, and we are seeking to impose ex post facto, an interpretation that most of the world does not agree with. And I'm fairly certain that if we expect the Arab world, and indeed most of the third world, to abide any agreement, then waterboarding is not going to be defined as torture.

[ben says]

We're trying to come in after the fact and self-impose a moral standard that much of the world, including the part where the subject events are taking place, simply does not buy. What we need is worldwide bright-line agreement on where the line is, and then abide by that line going forward. What we have is an agreement that is subject to a wide range of interpretation, and we are seeking to impose ex post facto, an interpretation that most of the world does not agree with. And I'm fairly certain that if we expect the Arab world, and indeed most of the third world, to abide any agreement, then waterboarding is not going to be defined as torture.

Why would we expect the Arab world to agree with ANY of our 'standards' We're hypocrites and any bright line rule will (and should) be laughed at)

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if the subject matter is or is not torture in the Arab world. Isn't our whole point (America's): we hold ourselves to the highest moral standard?

What about all the other non-waterboarding torture we've done?

[KenFSU]

Op-Ed headlining CNN right now, which was just released by prison censors.

What a disgrace.

Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag

Editor's note: Samir Naji is a Yemeni accused of serving in Osama bin Laden's security detail and has been imprisoned for nearly 13 years without charge in Guantanamo Bay. He was cleared for release in 2009, but remains in detention. The following first-person testimony, recorded during his most recent meeting with lawyers from the international human rights organization Reprieve, has just been released by prison censors. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely his.

Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (CNN) -- I've heard that the Senate report on CIA torture is 6,000 pages long. My story, though, takes place elsewhere: in Guantanamo, away from the CIA program that the report covers. The 6,000 pages of the Senate report are just the start of what Americans have to accept happened in their name.

It starts and ends in the silence of a tiny, freezing cold cell, alone.

That's when you hold yourself in a ball, and fight to ignore the confusion of what has just happened to you, and the fear of what might be coming next. Or the fear that comes when you realize that no one is coming to help; that the life, family and friends you knew are all far, far away.

The cell door opens. The next session, seemingly the 100th in a row. I think my first period of interrogation lasted three full months. Two teams of interrogators running shifts, day and night.

Each session begins with shouting, to wake me up. Then they hit me on the face and the back. I am so desperate for sleep, my head is swimming. There are photographs of faces stuck all around the walls of this room. They demand that I identify the individuals, but I can barely focus to see if I might know them. The shouting and the insults get louder, and then they nod to a man in the corner. He injects me twice in the arm with some unknown substance. It's the last thing I know.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. This time the guards enter, making awful honking noises, like wild animals.

I tried to refuse to eat the little food they bring me, in protest at all this. The interrogator laughs at me, but then turns angry; he swears loudly, and pours an army meal pack over my head. They tell the man in the corner to start feeding me intravenously. He inserts the tube in two different places on my arm and makes it bleed.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. This time the guards push me on the floor and take turns trampling over my back.

I tell the interrogators that I can't face not eating any more. They throw food on the floor of the room and tell me to eat like a pig. They won't let me go to the restroom. They watch as it gets more painful, and laugh as they get the translator to describe how they will rape me if I pee in my pants.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. They make me stand and salute the American flag.

I'm in a sort of cinema room, where I have to watch videos of other prisoners being abused. Then they tell me that I have to dance for them, and run in circles whilst they pull on my chains. Every time I try and refuse, they touch me in my most private areas.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. It has rained, and there are muddy puddles everywhere. I'm shackled, so I can't really walk; they deliberately drag me through the muddy puddles.

Now it's the pornography room. Awful pictures everywhere. There is one with a man and a donkey. I'm stripped naked and have my beard shaved, in a gratuitous insult to my religion. I'm shown pornographic pictures of women. I'm told to make the noises of different animals, and when I refuse, they just hit me. It ends with them pouring cold water all over me.

Hours later in my cell, I am discovered, nearly frozen. The doctor tells them to bring me urgently to the clinic, where I am given a blanket and treatment. Over the next hours, they observe me as I warm up. They are just waiting for the moment that they can sign off on my return to interrogation.

Four years ago, six U.S. government security agencies sat together and reviewed my case. Their conclusion? That I was innocent of any crime and should be released. The dirty and sadistic methods I endured -- which were then taken directly to Abu Ghraib -- achieved nothing, except to shame that American flag hanging in the prison corridor, which I was made to salute.

One hundred and thirty-six prisoners are still being held at Guantanamo, whilst the politicians squabble over how to black out the Senate report. America cannot keep hiding from its past, and its present, like this. Our stories, and our continued detention, cannot be made to disappear.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/opinion/guantanamo-inmate-naji/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[I-10east]

hello strawman.

[ben says]

I agree it's a disgrace

But, the bigger disgrace may be the lack of interest the American populace had towards what they kne was going on for eons.

At what point do the silent become complicit.

American "ideals" are a sham. Glad it's finally coming full circle.

On another note: the CIA report coming out 3 days before I leave for Cairo.....not the best timing for me!!!

Op-Ed headlining CNN right now, which was just released by prison censors.

What a disgrace.

Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag

Editor's note: Samir Naji is a Yemeni accused of serving in Osama bin Laden's security detail and has been imprisoned for nearly 13 years without charge in Guantanamo Bay. He was cleared for release in 2009, but remains in detention. The following first-person testimony, recorded during his most recent meeting with lawyers from the international human rights organization Reprieve, has just been released by prison censors. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely his.

Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (CNN) -- I've heard that the Senate report on CIA torture is 6,000 pages long. My story, though, takes place elsewhere: in Guantanamo, away from the CIA program that the report covers. The 6,000 pages of the Senate report are just the start of what Americans have to accept happened in their name.

It starts and ends in the silence of a tiny, freezing cold cell, alone.

That's when you hold yourself in a ball, and fight to ignore the confusion of what has just happened to you, and the fear of what might be coming next. Or the fear that comes when you realize that no one is coming to help; that the life, family and friends you knew are all far, far away.

The cell door opens. The next session, seemingly the 100th in a row. I think my first period of interrogation lasted three full months. Two teams of interrogators running shifts, day and night.

Each session begins with shouting, to wake me up. Then they hit me on the face and the back. I am so desperate for sleep, my head is swimming. There are photographs of faces stuck all around the walls of this room. They demand that I identify the individuals, but I can barely focus to see if I might know them. The shouting and the insults get louder, and then they nod to a man in the corner. He injects me twice in the arm with some unknown substance. It's the last thing I know.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. This time the guards enter, making awful honking noises, like wild animals.

I tried to refuse to eat the little food they bring me, in protest at all this. The interrogator laughs at me, but then turns angry; he swears loudly, and pours an army meal pack over my head. They tell the man in the corner to start feeding me intravenously. He inserts the tube in two different places on my arm and makes it bleed.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. This time the guards push me on the floor and take turns trampling over my back.

I tell the interrogators that I can't face not eating any more. They throw food on the floor of the room and tell me to eat like a pig. They won't let me go to the restroom. They watch as it gets more painful, and laugh as they get the translator to describe how they will rape me if I pee in my pants.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. They make me stand and salute the American flag.

I'm in a sort of cinema room, where I have to watch videos of other prisoners being abused. Then they tell me that I have to dance for them, and run in circles whilst they pull on my chains. Every time I try and refuse, they touch me in my most private areas.

The freezing cold cell. The cell door opens. It has rained, and there are muddy puddles everywhere. I'm shackled, so I can't really walk; they deliberately drag me through the muddy puddles.

Now it's the pornography room. Awful pictures everywhere. There is one with a man and a donkey. I'm stripped naked and have my beard shaved, in a gratuitous insult to my religion. I'm shown pornographic pictures of women. I'm told to make the noises of different animals, and when I refuse, they just hit me. It ends with them pouring cold water all over me.

Hours later in my cell, I am discovered, nearly frozen. The doctor tells them to bring me urgently to the clinic, where I am given a blanket and treatment. Over the next hours, they observe me as I warm up. They are just waiting for the moment that they can sign off on my return to interrogation.

Four years ago, six U.S. government security agencies sat together and reviewed my case. Their conclusion? That I was innocent of any crime and should be released. The dirty and sadistic methods I endured -- which were then taken directly to Abu Ghraib -- achieved nothing, except to shame that American flag hanging in the prison corridor, which I was made to salute.

One hundred and thirty-six prisoners are still being held at Guantanamo, whilst the politicians squabble over how to black out the Senate report. America cannot keep hiding from its past, and its present, like this. Our stories, and our continued detention, cannot be made to disappear.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/opinion/guantanamo-inmate-naji/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[fsquid]

Why would we expect the Arab world to agree with ANY of our 'standards' We're hypocrites and any bright line rule will (and should) be laughed at)

But that's the point. What standard applies when dealing with others who don't accept our standards?

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if the subject matter is or is not torture in the Arab world. Isn't our whole point (America's): we hold ourselves to the highest moral standard?

What about all the other non-waterboarding torture we've done?

What if neither waterboarding nor the "other non-waterboarding torture we've done" are actually torture? Because there is a time not long ago when none of them would have been defined as torture. And it's not entirely clear that any of them are today.

If we hold ourselves to the highest moral standard, it's the highest moral standard based upon our ethnocentric definition of morality. Our "highest moral standard" is clearly not the highest moral standard when judged based upon formulations of morality in other cultures. Our "highest moral standard" is actually quite immoral by standards of the Arab world.

So whose standards apply? How do we deal with other cultures that have vastly different standards of morality? Do we insist on doing our thing and asserting moral superiority over them? If the goal is to piss them off, that's probably a good approach. Do we do like 18th century Japan, or modern day North Korea, and isolate? Do we "go native" whenever we are in a different culture?

And in a world where regardless of our intentions we require intel to survive, and obtaining intel requires doing unsavory actions and associating with nefarious people, where do we draw the lines?

There are some tough questions here, because it's a tough world we live in, and pretending that all we have to do is comply with our own ethnocentric notions of morality is incredibly naive.

[finehoe]

What Is Torture? Our Beliefs Depend In Part On Who's Doing It.

http://www.npr.org/2014/12/11/370022493/what-is-torture-our-beliefs-depend-in-part-on-whos-doing-it

[KenFSU]

And in a world where regardless of our intentions we require intel to survive, and obtaining intel requires doing unsavory actions and associating with nefarious people, where do we draw the lines?

An easy line to draw would be one of effectiveness. Regardless of morality, there are mountains of data -- the Senate report included -- demonstrating that information obtained through torture is almost never actionable or accurate. People will say anything under duress, and by relying on such dubious information, you are poisoning the well of credible intelligence gathered through much more reliable, traditional methods. In this particular case, there was quite literally zero upside, and an avalanche of consequences that continues to mount.

[finehoe]

Everything we were told about the imminence of terrifying terror attacks after 9/11 was a huge exaggeration of the actual risks we faced. Which means that the torture program was set up to prevent a fantasy built on fear and panic – not on real threats to the homeland, let alone thousands of American lives. What you get from this report is a clear sense that on 9/11, thanks in part to incompetence at the CIA, the Jihadists got lucky. That's all. It was not the beginning of a wave of terror; it did not reveal the existence of a massive clandestine plot to attack the US with WMDs or flocks of suicide bombers. We were fighting a menace that was a pathetic shadow of what we actually believed. And the people who are supposed to have an adult assessment of the risks, the men in charge of the US government, threw out any skepticism, trashed any contrary analysis, and went head-first into this astonishing campaign of torture, bombing and invasion in what history will surely judge was the most grotesque over-reaction to a threat in American history.