Transit Oriented Development Workshop coming in August

[brainstormer]

It sounds like a great deal of positive discussion took place.  The reconnecting website is really interesting...although a lot of information to process!  I can't wait for things to start happening around here.  Keep up the good work guys. 

[southerngirl]

Steve Cissel represented the Jackson Square group.  He mentioned he represented a development group that was doing some work out of Orlando.  This is something I'll have to look up to see how their past projects have turned out.  He said that they were working with the community to make sure it fit into the surrounding area.  Ock mentioned that the railroad would favor closing the River Oaks crossing, but there was no discussion that followed after his comment.

If by "working with the community to make sure it fits into the surrounding area" he means "host a meeting with neighbors, after which you don't work in a cooperative way to address any of their traffic and noise concerns," then sure, he's working with the neighborhood.

Don't believe a word out of this guy's mouth or his little buddy Paul Harden's either, about the "working with the neighborhood" bit. He's maneuvering to get every inch of his 18 acres packed with six-story buildings -- without providing the required parking (check the PUD -- they plan to provide 1/2 the parking req'd), setbacks, greenspace and without concern for all of the train noise and traffic, not to mention light, that will bounce right back into the small neighborhoods nearby.

He's a smooth talker -- I'll be interested to hear what you find out about his other development's success near Orlando.

And, many many thanks for the report on the meeting. The neighbors around the area around Jackson Square aren't trying to kill progress, we're just asking that everyone involved in decision making stop for a moment and consider the impact this massive development is going to have on the homes and families that already live in and have established that area as one of Jacksonville's truly great neighborhoods.

[tufsu1]

Good summaryu Lake...I did not have the time today

As for Jackson Square, Steve Cissel showed a visual of what the current zoning would allow on the site....and then what they were asking for in the PUD....the second one was much less intense.

I think the partners in the Orlando projects are Cypress Realty...maybe that's what CVRI is.

[thelakelander]

I'm going to have to see if I can get that visual from Steve.  Its pretty powerful.

[Ocklawaha]

From my point of view, Lakelander is dead on in his comments on building and TOD. Of course I was there to pick up anything on Mass Transit that was available. I wasn't disappointed.

The comment on Train Noise and River Oaks closing was from my "railroaders point-of-view", while it didn't bring up discussion, it brought some number of nodding heads and notes. I explained that State-Federal $$ are an incentive to close crossings. I know a town in Oklahoma that closed 3 and built a new city park with the bucks. "If a commuter rail station is built there, train noise can be held down by rule of law, but that passes on some liability, the real solution is to be sure that the equipment on the commuter rail line uses the new LRT type "SOFT WHOO TYPE" horns in the dense urban areas, with a firetruck horn as an emergency backup."

During the JTA presentation, Scott mentioned the waste of Transportation dollars on projects that could have much more and longer lasting impact if we'd put them into Mass Transit. He went on to say $5 Million for an undeeded street or lane project, how much transit would THAT buy? We could build a simple overpass for $150 Million, but imagine what that would do for Jacksonville Mass Transit.

I questioned him and the pannel with a proposal:

"Imagine we didn't build just one overpass, and we got the $150 Million for mass transit, in your professional opinions could we or could we not build our starter streetcar line all the way from 5 Points to the Stadium with that money..."

EVERY ONE agreed and went on to add, comments such as, "and more..." "and O&M for XYZ years" etc...

SO, Let the record show that JACKSONVILLE and JTA are well aware that streetcar is a less expensive alternative then highways for whatever purpose.

The Washington DC planner made it clear that the LRT/STREETCAR idea is superor, as Lake pointed out, as the amount of improvements to BRT increase to where the capacitys approach Light Rail, you could pay for Light Rail, so why not build rail in the first place? Further he said, in 5-10 years you will be out there rebuilding that road and the railroads last forever!

Now don't go into a heart failure here, but "Ocklawaha" doesn't completey buy that last line. Railroad's last forever... In fact the government says 100 years for track. What they don't say is that what started as 80 mile per hour track isn't good for 5 miles per hour in 20 years if it isn't kept maintained. Still electric rail systems are much cheaper to maintain then bus systems and cheaper to operate. But for the reasons of maintaining the trackage, we shouldn't slap a cheap asphalt cover over it as Tampa did. Portland used a little more logic and used a paving cobblestone block. The block serves two purposes. 1. it allows for easy removal to get at any point on the track. 2. While it is in the street, and CAN be used as a traffic lane, nobody will drive in it except for getting around a stalled bus or double parked UPS truck because it jars your teeth out.

Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.

OCKLAWAHA

[civil42806]

From my point of view, Lakelander is dead on in his comments on building and TOD. Of course I was there to pick up anything on Mass Transit that was available. I wasn't disappointed.

The comment on Train Noise and River Oaks closing was from my "railroaders point-of-view", while it didn't bring up discussion, it brought some number of nodding heads and notes. I explained that State-Federal $$ are an incentive to close crossings. I know a town in Oklahoma that closed 3 and built a new city park with the bucks. "If a commuter rail station is built there, train noise can be held down by rule of law, but that passes on some liability, the real solution is to be sure that the equipment on the commuter rail line uses the new LRT type "SOFT WHOO TYPE" horns in the dense urban areas, with a firetruck horn as an emergency backup."

During the JTA presentation, Scott mentioned the waste of Transportation dollars on projects that could have much more and longer lasting impact if we'd put them into Mass Transit. He went on to say $5 Million for an undeeded street or lane project, how much transit would THAT buy? We could build a simple overpass for $150 Million, but imagine what that would do for Jacksonville Mass Transit.

I questioned him and the pannel with a proposal:

"Imagine we didn't build just one overpass, and we got the $150 Million for mass transit, in your professional opinions could we or could we not build our starter streetcar line all the way from 5 Points to the Stadium with that money..."

EVERY ONE agreed and went on to add, comments such as, "and more..." "and O&M for XYZ years" etc...

SO, Let the record show that JACKSONVILLE and JTA are well aware that streetcar is a less expensive alternative then highways for whatever purpose.

The Washington DC planner made it clear that the LRT/STREETCAR idea is superor, as Lake pointed out, as the amount of improvements to BRT increase to where the capacitys approach Light Rail, you could pay for Light Rail, so why not build rail in the first place? Further he said, in 5-10 years you will be out there rebuilding that road and the railroads last forever!

Now don't go into a heart failure here, but "Ocklawaha" doesn't completey buy that last line. Railroad's last forever... In fact the government says 100 years for track. What they don't say is that what started as 80 mile per hour track isn't good for 5 miles per hour in 20 years if it isn't kept maintained. Still electric rail systems are much cheaper to maintain then bus systems and cheaper to operate. But for the reasons of maintaining the trackage, we shouldn't slap a cheap asphalt cover over it as Tampa did. Portland used a little more logic and used a paving cobblestone block. The block serves two purposes. 1. it allows for easy removal to get at any point on the track. 2. While it is in the street, and CAN be used as a traffic lane, nobody will drive in it except for getting around a stalled bus or double parked UPS truck because it jars your teeth out.

Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.

OCKLAWAHA

But aren't we spending 100 million a mile to expand the skyway express?

[tufsu1]

I'm going to have to see if I can get that visual from Steve.  Its pretty powerful.

I have them....but am having trouble adding the pics into this post....I admit to not being all that computer savvy...how about a step-by-step for dummies

[thelakelander]

Assuming they are jpegs...

1. Upload the images from your hard drive to an online photo host.  You can do this for free at www.photobucket.com.

2. To add the images to your post, copy and paste the image's URL address into your post.

3. Then add [ img ]http://in front and[ /img ] behind the cut and pasted URL address.  Make sure there are no blank spaces between any of the characters...(for example [ img ] should be [img  )

4. Click "post" and the image should show up.

[Ocklawaha]

But aren't we spending 100 million a mile to expand the skyway express?

Thanks for the comment/fear there Civil. (I'm not making light of the word FEAR, as the city has every right to be afraid of that project due to pa, st blunders).

The REAL story on the Skyway is that expansion shouldn't cost more then $15-30 Million a mile MAX. I have recent (last week) talks with builders that say 15 is more realistic. Except for the Hotel block, we can scrap the side walls and elevated tub that it runs in. We go with simple twin beams like Disney, with a center steel grid catwalk for emergencys and repair.

Most of the original expense was on the very fine state-of-the-art computer control system, "war room" or NASA style control system. Signaling, owning the rights to the center cars which were property of Bombarider, and lots of support systems built in just-in-case the thing ever became regional. None of this part should ever have to be built again, it's already in place and will last 50-100 years.

So for any expansion, we are talking simple twin concrete beams, and station costs only. The station costs could be split between projects or absorbed by Commuter Rail.

Hope this helps.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Another major cost was the segment crossing the river and the fact that the original peoplemover system was rebuilt.  It also would not hurt to drop it down to grade in areas where this can be done (like in San Marco to Atlantic Blvd, after it crosses the tracks.  Small extensions in certain areas would be significantly cheaper than the $84 million/mile number we typically run with.

[brainstormer]

And if we can work out some partnerships and be creative with the skyway stations, that would also help cut costs.  Can any of them be worked into an existing building or new construction?  We want to be creative and make every effort to make the system unique and usable for many people.

[thelakelander]

Sure.  Both the Detroit Peoplemover and Miami Metromover go through buildings.  Btw, the developers of the Bay Street Station project plan to directly connect their building to the Jefferson Street Station.

Detroit Peoplemover going into a Courtyard by Marriott hotel.

[southerngirl]

Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.

OCKLAWAHA

Hey Ock -- really?  There are now detailed drawings that commit Jackson Square to 3-4 stories?

[thelakelander]

The drawings were massing models.  Under the existing zoning they can build buildings as high as 60 feet.  However, the massing models of Jackson Square had the buildings in the 4 story range. 

[Ocklawaha]

Don't know how detailed the finished drawings are, but we did see a work up of an "original" conception then a much lower, reduced size village. These were renderings and not plans, but he did say that lenders were not hearing ANYTHING with the words residential in them, thus the size cut?  Anyway, the impression I came away with is, if we were still in the housing boom, y'all would have 10 story neighbors, but current economics makes that impossible.

Lake was I reading into this more? OR, is this pretty much correct as you heard it from an Urban Designer standpoint?

OCKLAWAHA