The Skyway Express: Should We Keep Or Get Rid Of It?

[Metro Jacksonville]

The Skyway Express: Should We Keep Or Get Rid Of It?



Metro Jacksonville's Kristen Pickrell sits down with three local professionals to ponder the merits of the JTA Skyway and its future.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-skyway-express-should-we-keep-or-get-rid-of-it

[marty904]

Ok first, this Rod Sullivan character lost all credibility with me when I read his comment of "shut down the skyway and everyone shop on the internet instead of going downtown"... really??  And then "no comment" on all the rest of the questions. If he can't answer the interview questions, his opinions should not even have been published.

We have a system that (can) bring people to downtown from the outer lying areas and with some improvement/expansion could easily increase ridership and downtown patronage.  Sure it's imperfect and sure it uses energy and produces a bit of pollution... we're not talking about shutting down all the other transportation that does the same...  The skyway could be improved with some "greener" efforts and if it was expanded into the areas that the public outcry has been asking for, it would be much more successful.

One of the biggest downfalls that can be fixed immediately and with little effort, is to keep it operating later hours and more importantly on every single weekend. I live on the Southbank and would love the ability to hop on every weekend and head over to the Northbank/core.

[bencrix]

Generally, electric propulsion systems are more efficient than gasoline / diesel internal combustion (It costs about $0.03 / mi to operate an electric passenger vehicle, while it costs about $0.13 / mil to operate a conventional vehicle). Increase beyond single occupancy, and the efficiency of any mode of transportation increases. Based on such rough assumptions, Jacksonville's relatively carbon-intensive electricity production results in environmental advantages relative to petroleum fuels, and transit is more efficient than single-occupancy transportation. Meanwhile, the carbon-intensity of the City's electricity has been improving and will continue to do so. And, yes, nuclear and solar are already part of this mix. (From the perspective of an electric motor, utility generated electricity is utility generated electricity -- how it is produced is irrelevant. The Skyway can certainly "run" on electricity produced from a mix of renewables, nuclear, natural gas and coal. It's doing so right now).

[coredumped]

BM: A case of too little, too late, they will either need to go for a useful base system, streetcar conversion or quit and count their losses.

Isn't that pretty much what Tampa did with the Harbour Island People Mover?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbour_Island_People_Mover
They switched to a streetcar after removing their people mover.

[tufsu1]

^ except that the streetcar doesn't go to Harbour Island

[jaxlore]

Rod Sullivan's "shut down the skyway and everyone shop on the internet instead of going downtown" is ridiculous and kind of discredits anything he said.

I am with Ennis on getting some sort of no frils skyway stop to Riverside now, and put the big money towards light rail.

[jaxjaguar]

Tearing down the SkyWay or "shutting it off" are not going to solve anything. Do people still not know about the Federal grants we received for this project that would have to be returned? Also the "internet shopping" and "no comments" sections are completely discrediting.

I'm all for a street cars, but I really think we should expand the SkyWay to Brooklyn (preferably to Forest street) and to the sports district. Also, as others have mentioned, would it be more cost effective to modify the current structure to accept street car style trains? Is it the trains that cause the price to be so high or the stations? What exactly differentiates a "no frills" station from a standard station?

[I-10east]

Ok first, this Rod Sullivan character lost all credibility with me when I read his comment of "shut down the skyway and everyone shop on the internet instead of going downtown"... really??  And then "no comment" on all the rest of the questions. If he can't answer the interview questions, his opinions should not even have been published.

+100

[Captain Zissou]

Is Rob Sullivan actually Know Growth/North Miami??

[Ocklawaha]

Let's contrast this with the TECO streetcar in it's first full year. Power usage for the streetcar system included electricity for the Ybor Station, Southern Transportation Plaza, overhead contact system (OCS) and all other streetcar stations. Average monthly power usage was 100,801 kilowatt-hours for an average monthly cost of just over $9,057. The total annual cost for power was $108,682. This covered a base service of 15 minute headways, with peak headways of 7.5 minutes. 425,614 passengers  rode with a 99.80% reliability.

This would be the approximate usage of 4 cars running 16 hour days in Jacksonville, 360 days each year. Much of the savings is in the steel wheel - streetcar coasting factor, which is by far the majority of the time, thus actual power usage is quite low.

But since JTA and the COJ is 'married' to rubber tires, including Skyway tires, were probably not going to see any improvements. Worse, the JTA's insistence on an unpopular BRT installation simply means that even if the Skyway were dismantled, those dollars will go into more buses and more highway lanes.

TIME TO PULL OUR COLLECTIVE HEADS OUT JACKSONVILLE!

[urbanlibertarian]

How steep a grade could be used to bring streetcars down to ground level to continue out into neighborhoods?

[Ocklawaha]

United Streetcar states that the maximum grade is 9% (which is also the same as the Inekon and Skoda models). Some streetcars have used steeper gradient, but a good rule of thumb would be around 6% as a ruling grade. It should also be noted here that light-rail trains can generally handle up to a 12% gradient. The LRT ability strongly suggests that a streetcar could be built to the same standards. Otherwise:
Europe

· Sheffield – short section on 10% grade, and others at 9%. Articulated tramcars operate without any problem on these grades, on a daily basis. All axles on the cars are powered to enable operation on such gradients.

· Würzburg – operation on approximately 10.8% grade.

· Nordhausen – the tramway, located in this small city on the south side of the Harz hills range, negotiates a 9.8% grade in Stolberger Strasse for about 500 meters.

A wide number of European systems or routes, no longer in operation, included segments with grades at least as steep – gradients of 10, 11, and close to 12 percent. For example:

· Geneva (line now closed) – 11.8%

· Le Havre (system now closed) – 11.5%

USA

· Boston – C-Commonwealth Avenue streetcar line has a gradient of more than 8%.

· Portland – MAX LRT system has a 7% grade on the ramp leading from Second Avenue onto the Steel Bridge.

· Little Rock – River Rail streetcar line between Little Rock and North Little Rock climbs a gradient of 7.8% on the approach to the Main St. bridge over the Arkansas River.

· San Francisco – grades of 9% on the J-Church and L-Taraval streetcar lines of the Municipal Railway.

· Pittsburgh – Route 52-Arlington has a grade of 10%, routinely negotiated by modern Siemens and CAF articulated interurban-type railcars.

[Ocklawaha]

Just for the record, it CAN BE DONE!


...And to a great extent, we've been there before!

Also in defense of Mr. Rod Sullivan, he works at UNF with a logistic's program that is also connected with the National Academy of Railroad Sciences (NARS). As such his opinion of ANYTHING passenger rail is tainted with years, indeed over a half century of an entire industry trying to throw off a huge money loser. None of the industry-speak on the subject has much to do with rail's superiority over highways, fuel savings, ridership characteristics, ecology, etc. These attitudes are just beginning to change with the likes of the Texas-Japanese National Railways High Speed Rail Project, All Aboard Florida, Iowa Pacific and Corridor Capital, are changing much of that thinking. Industry magazines are also working to change the perception into one of opportunity rather then loss.

http://ccrail.com/wp-content/uploads/Indiana-Development-Timetable-2014-09.pdf
http://www.iowapacific.com/passenger-trains.html

[mtraininjax]

Tearing down the SkyWay or "shutting it off" are not going to solve anything. Do people still not know about the Federal grants we received for this project that would have to be returned? Also the "internet shopping" and "no comments" sections are completely discrediting.

Whoa, you forget, our Mayor Brown used to work in the Federal Government, he has extensive ties to leaders in Washington DC and he can "borrow" money to pay for new projects. Have no fear Jacksonville, Mayor Brown is on it!



How the JTA can keep operating something that is free to people who use it, is beyond my comprehension. Someone at JTA needs to grow a pair and either grow the damn thing or shut it down and get Brown to bite the bullet, but its an election year and we need all the free things we can get for the voting public......

[TimmyB]

As a person who will be moving to the JAX area in a few short years, I can tell you that the mass-transit (lack, thereof) is the one single most disappointing aspect of this city.  We have seen the systems in place in so many places, from the outstanding MAX system in Portland, to the gargantuan MARTA in Atlanta.  The fact that a city this large, with so much going for it, has NOTHING comparable is quite a surprise.  I do understand that the city's population does grow "radially", as one of the experts mentioned, but so do these other two cities that I mentioned.  Those cities simply chose lines that were along the greatest need, and built the line there.  It starts with the airport, and goes downtown. 

I know that I'll never see a true mass-transit line (LR, mono, streetcar, etc.) in JAX my lifetime, but I would still support one.  As for the Skyway, I think the comment about building half of a bridge made the most sense.  Self-inflicted wound.