Berkman Plaza 2

[Josh]

Even the rentals are doing well there now, making the 220 Riverside lack of signings confusing to me (but I am a layman with no real estate background/education) http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf

220 Riverside is just too expensive for an unproven area. Their units are almost 30% more expensive than those at the town center. If they lower the price to town center levels people will move in and then they can consider the prices they originally planned.

I was dead set on moving there until I saw they were charging $1000 a month for a 600sq ft studio. I'd still have to pay trash fees, utilities, cable, internet, etc on top of that... this isn't New York or Atlanta. You won't be able to get away with those prices from the get go. Young professionals need to be encouraged to moved into these areas before the more wealthy ones will come.

The location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.

I would consider the money saved while living at the Town Center compensation for having to deal with the most poorly planned part of town and its resulting traffic. I also don't see the appeal of living at the Town Center from a "being close to all these shops and restaurants" perspective as you would need to drive to them.

[downtownbrown]

Yeah, how can you possibly compare Town Center with the Core? Apples and Oranges.  I don't think the Berkman 1 construction issues will matter a bit if Berkman 2 gets built.  Just guessing, but I bet the format of Berkman 2 changes from "luxury residences" to "urban apartments" just like the Hendricks project has done.  If the project is finished, I hope the target market is young professionals.  Younger the better.

[simms3]

I can think of some pretty cool projects that got done in Seattle because of the will of one man.

Paul Allen.

So looking at Khan is not shortsighted.  Expecting him to do everything, perhaps. Not everyone expected Paul to make it all work. (and in some cases it just didn't)

In real estate, Seattle has about 5 other men in addition to Paul Allen who are all just prolific developers and positive community influences.  Real estate development is their primary vehicle of investment, though (versus Paul, who has Vulcan, but also has an army of investments and awesome distractions in his one in a billion life)...the city really has a lot more than these guys, but it has 6 individuals in particular including Allen who can put up dreamy high rise towers targeting Millennials or class A office towers for Amazon or some larger investment advisor's special account.  These guys get things done.  But Seattle, man, what a place.  It has stars in every category (Paul Allen certainly being one of them...though!)

If Khan turns out to be a Paul Allen, the city might be attractive to me in particular to move back to.  I would love to be a part of that!

[simms3]

Even the rentals are doing well there now, making the 220 Riverside lack of signings confusing to me (but I am a layman with no real estate background/education) http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf

220 Riverside is just too expensive for an unproven area. Their units are almost 30% more expensive than those at the town center. If they lower the price to town center levels people will move in and then they can consider the prices they originally planned.

I was dead set on moving there until I saw they were charging $1000 a month for a 600sq ft studio. I'd still have to pay trash fees, utilities, cable, internet, etc on top of that... this isn't New York or Atlanta. You won't be able to get away with those prices from the get go. Young professionals need to be encouraged to moved into these areas before the more wealthy ones will come.

The location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.

I would consider the money saved while living at the Town Center compensation for having to deal with the most poorly planned part of town and its resulting traffic. I also don't see the appeal of living at the Town Center from a "being close to all these shops and restaurants" perspective as you would need to drive to them.

Jaxjaguar:
In Atlanta a similar unit would be 1.5x more expensive, so not really in the same level as New York.  In New York, they don't build stuff like this (this is essentially still suburban stuck in a downtown-adjacent site).  But if we are considering this luxury, amenities, "mid-rise", and location-location-location, to get the same in New York it would be 4-5x as expensive.  But then also shrink square footage from 600 to 400 or less. 

Josh:
Let me know when you get rid of your car in Jax. 

[downtownbrown]

If Khan turns out to be a Paul Allen, the city might be attractive to me in particular to move back to.  I would love to be a part of that!
[/quote]

that's exactly what the city doesn't get, and what developers want to hear

[Elwood]

It only takes one to get the ball rolling. Success breeds interest, and others will follow if they see opportunity from Mr. Khans investment in the city.

[mtraininjax]

The location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.

+1

Gotta remember, there is nothing, virtually no life besides Bay Street at the end near Berkman Plaza. Most of the cool hip places are near the FL Theatre or near the old public library or along Laura Street. Yeah, you can be cool and hip, look out over the river, but you have the jail behind you and an empty courthouse that has more rats than patrons.

Besides 220 is the hip, new place to be. Town Center has traffic nightmares and to get anywhere at TC, you need a car, there is little public transit. Not so at 220, with great connections to 5 Points and Riverside, and expansions going on in Brooklyn, possible skyway extension, this is the nucleus of the downtown rejuvenation. Besides, that $1000 a month gets you ready for the sticker shock of ownership in Riverside Avondale. 

[simms3]

The location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.

+1

Gotta remember, there is nothing, virtually no life besides Bay Street at the end near Berkman Plaza. Most of the cool hip places are near the FL Theatre or near the old public library or along Laura Street. Yeah, you can be cool and hip, look out over the river, but you have the jail behind you and an empty courthouse that has more rats than patrons.

Besides 220 is the hip, new place to be. Town Center has traffic nightmares and to get anywhere at TC, you need a car, there is little public transit. Not so at 220, with great connections to 5 Points and Riverside, and expansions going on in Brooklyn, possible skyway extension, this is the nucleus of the downtown rejuvenation. Besides, that $1000 a month gets you ready for the sticker shock of ownership in Riverside Avondale. 

I have to disagree with a few things here but I can tell your thinking is well-placed.  In my opinion Berkman II is a far superior location for amenities and walkability.  The walk to Bay St and the FL Theater can best be described as short and painless, not even long enough to carry on a full conversation with your friends along the way.  What, honestly, is there around 220 Riverside?  It will be relatively bland commercial below (I'm guessing dry cleaning, nail salon, cheap sushi, a bar that lasts a few months and is replaced, a UPS store, and one shining star perhaps).

I do agree, though, that residents are needed.  Or more downtown office workers.  Both support small businesses.  The egg is demand in the form of residents, tourists, and/or workers.  The chicken is businesses to support them.

Your quote also reminds me that now is the time to strike while its hot.  Ron might agree...

This discussion is good.

[mtraininjax]

The walk to Bay St and the FL Theater can best be described as short and painless, not even long enough to carry on a full conversation with your friends along the way.  What, honestly, is there around 220 Riverside?  It will be relatively bland commercial below (I'm guessing dry cleaning, nail salon, cheap sushi, a bar that lasts a few months and is replaced, a UPS store, and one shining star perhaps).

Corner Bistro is bland? Whole Foods is bland? Simms -  Come on man, 220 is going to be awesome. Sure it will have dry cleaners and nail salons and a UPS store, but communities NEED these places, not to mention a mobile phone store, because Lord knows we need a phone store on every corner to flip back and forth between Verizon and Sprint. 220 will develop and expand based on what the residents support. No different than what King Street or 5 Points have become or even Avondale Shoppes.

I don't consider a walk from Berkman II to the FL Theater the same quality of walk as I do walking from my house to the shoppes of Avondale. But I am an urban homeowner, and not a downtown dweller who only knows concrete construction. Grass, trees and greenery, I have learned, are good things to appreciate. Something lost in downtown living, albeit Hemming and a few pocket parks (thanks Mayor Peyton).

[simms3]

Yes, my perspective is a little different.  Both Corner Bakery (which is a national chain) and Fresh Market, a higher end big box grocer, are "bland" to me, though at least one is necessary (and will serve more people driving into Avondale, Riverside, Ortega, and points beyond...Clay County, than walkers from the "neighborhood" of Brooklyn).  Both will be in a bland strip center surrounded by surface parking.  Anything in DT Jax to me is less bland!

The walk from house a couple blocks away to Shoppes of Avondale is urban for Jax standards, but this is still low density for most of the country (~3,000 ppsm of upscale homes and shops).  I wouldn't say it's necessarily super urban when you compare to SF suburbs or townships surrounding Boston, Philly, NYC, or Chicago, and certainly not comparable to other cities' "core inner neighborhoods".  I'd call it comfortable living for upper middle class/upper class households with some charm, as opposed to the bland stucco gated communities that dot FL.  My standards are a little too high perhaps, but I'd like to see suburbs that look and function like Avondale, and Avondale look and function a little more like a "concrete city".

To me, the walk from Berkman II to FL Theater would likely be more "interesting".  A few more sights and sounds, perhaps.  More general traffic...the biggest obstacle is that damn courthouse, but maybe one day that side of the road will be as interesting as the other.  A few surface lots need to be developed, as well, but I trust them to be built on well before anything big happens in the 2 block stretch of Avondale's shops.

NIMBYism hasn't yet affected downtown - it just suffers from a lack of proper investment and poor city leadership that can't build an economy that supports natural occurring development of the area guided by wise infrastructure/planning decisions.  NIMBYism has, however, become a huge part of Avondale, and I suspect the neighborhood will suffer from it unnecessarily.

Not to turn this into a discussion about Avondale, which I love, I personally prefer Berkman II's waterfront location along the Riverwalk and with access to Bay St and the theater/entertainment district, as well as walking access to downtown office towers.  I love 220 Riverside and think it's great, but I left Atlanta in a stage when it was building that stuff 15+ miles out, so to me it's been there done that.  It's unique for Jax, but give it 10+ years of higher growth and urban infill development and 220 Riverside will become a dime a dozen.

[simms3]

Besides, that $1000 a month gets you ready for the sticker shock of ownership in Riverside Avondale. 

There is sticker shock in Riverside-Avondale?    Always a nice pyramid up to the top!

If I ever move back, I will be very very happy.  My rent in SF will put me in a $500,000 house, easily, and I'm just now 26.  That $500K will get you "affordable housing" here in the city, or a market rate 400-500 SF for purchase studio in the Tenderloin (the city's most notorious neighborhood).  There is a 3,879 SF penthouse in a very otherwise affordable (think 1BRs and Studios) building in the TL now down-priced to a mere $4.25M ($1095/sf, and of course no yard and monthly HOAs of $4,118, though that gets you 2 subterranean garage spaces, which is a very rare "luxury" here, LoL - consider 2 garage spaces equivalent to waterfront, ha).  Nearby is a former dental school building converted to apartments where 275 SF micro-units started at $1550/mo when it went on the market (though I heard some went for nearly $2K).

But yes, for Jax, a place like 220 Riverside is kind of the top of the rental market.  I suspect that a lot of guys who move there will get laid just for living there.  That always makes me happy when people "benefit" like that.  I could never afford a place that would get me laid here (though if I weren't dating someone, out of towners are always impressed just by the fact I'm able to live in the city at all!).  When I lived in Jax, (or actually I think I was visiting from Atlanta), I was impressed by someone's top floor loft at 11 East.  That person also kept a pad in NYC, so I suspect it was chump change, but to me it was cool.  Hmm, worth a possible investment if they were for sale!!  Vestcor, are you listening??

[mtraininjax]

It's unique for Jax, but give it 10+ years of higher growth and urban infill development and 220 Riverside will become a dime a dozen.

It took the 220 Riverside partners 10 years to get their project from concept to being constructed. A lot can change in 10 years, we had a super bowl about 10 years ago and all our leaders were padding each other on the back, saying Jacksonville will change because of the super bowl. What really changed?

Publix-anchored Riverside Market Square, what we call the Riverside Publix was built in 2001, can you believe it is almost 15 years old, already, how has that area grown or collapsed during that period? The area still looks great and fresh with new shops opening up as old ones are not supported by the residents.

If the residents want a nail salon, they will support it, just as if they want a Five Guys burger joint, they will support that too, or not as was the case. Corner Bakery may be a chain, same with Whole Foods, but these are new to this area and represent MAJOR investment in a still yet unproven solution. No one knows for sure if 220 will make it, but just as with 1661, not withstanding the ongoing lawsuit over construction, the market will decide if it wants to pay to live near convenience. If Popeye's chicken moves in and stays, its supported by the people who live around it. Otherwise, it leaves, no matter if its chain or not. Town Center is made up almost entirely of chains, yet it survives because people support them. Hawkers and Corner Taco are local shops, supported in 5-points by locals.

Let the residents decide what they want to support. Just as with the Landing, citizens decided they did not want to support Fat Tuesday or the other high end stores, and they left. Same will happen at 220 Riverside or any other commercial development. It is however nice to see that developers are willing to risk it to develop with the plan that people will support their developments. Something, which would be nice to see more of downtown.

[simms3]

^^^I agree, mostly.  That's precisely why I said a nail salon will open, a dry cleaner, a bar to be replaced every 4-8 months by a new bar owners, a cheap sushi place, etc etc.  However, 220 Riverside is 295 units.  Not really a real "critical" mass for much to be supported by just the residents themselves.

And I'm not trying to be a snob, literally a nail salon is one of the stores in my own building, but SF is just a different world.  We literally have laws against chains (there are large swaths of the city where any business with more than 11 locations internationally or owned by a parent with 11 or more locations internationally is considered a chain and cannot open).  We also rioted when Jack Spade and Steven Alan opened in the Mission and Hayes Valley, respectably.  People here are literally political about this and people also seem to prefer to shop in Le Petit Marchet or the "Real Food Company" or the "Larkin Corner Grocer" as opposed to [insert big store here], Whole Foods of course being "acceptable", LoL.  My perspective on what's bland and my general feelings towards chains (not that I consider Jack Spade to actually be a big "chain") is a little skewed, naturally, by my environment.

The Landing was meant as a tourist draw.  Unfortunately, Banana Republic is not enough to make Jax suburban residents downtown tourists, and there are no other tourists.  It wasn't residents saying they didn't want that stuff, because they sure as hell love it in multiple locations across the city, but it was bad timing, a bad concept, and nothing else to create support.

It has been my long held view that Brooklyn as a whole will never really be able to be built out to a large population that can be self-contained and create real demand for lots of businesses.  220 Riverside is a *vast* improvement of land use over what we have, but long term is actually a pretty inefficient use of the land.  The other apartment development next door is what I would call an abomination of land use adjacent to downtown, even if it's a super huge improvement and provides "downtown housing".  I realize we must take baby steps, but my perspective is kind of broad and formed by being a snobby resident of a truly urban place.  Brooklyn will end up a concealed medium-density community of a few apartment buildings, office buildings, a hotel, and some other uses in a pretty unwalkable context, cutoff by highways.  We can "fix" all of this at cost, but rebuilding LaVilla properly would simply be more effective.  As would filling in Springfield and San Marco, and the Northbank itself.

[billy]

In spite of all the positive attributes of the new projects in Brooklyn, as an overall lost urban development
opportunity (net benefits of new development vs. loss of historic fabric), I agree.

[billy]

Maybe I am a snob, and don't get enough mani-pedis (sp?),
but I consider a salon to be a tenant of last resort (this may be an Atlanta perspective).

No offence to anyone whose mother works in one.