Scholars say they know where the ancient Fort Caroline is - in Georgia

[I-10east]

At Ft Caroline's visitors center, you can see a video that acknowledges the unknown location of the real fort, and the scaled down version of the replica fort.

[JaxByDefault]

Whether true or not (a plausible hunch, sure, but I have some considerable doubts), as a former archaeologist, I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here. It's a way to garner attention, fame, and perhaps grant money through sensationalism. I hope they're ripped apart by their peers both in the academy and in CRM for the timing of the announcement. (Maybe I should go to the AAA conference this year, after all.)

[RMHoward]

I would enjoy reading/seeing their entire presentation. I wonder if its available online somewhere.  From what I have read they have presented a thoroughly researched hypothesis with the only thing lacking now being an actual site survey.  I believe the general Jacksonville area for Fort Caroline has been written in stone for a very long time without a single artifact being found on site to support it. I found that hard to believe when I read it.

[Ocklawaha]

Screw the French (no insult intended) but where did Pedro Menéndez de Avilés, Place it?  The soldados and fuerzas navales of Spain were not so stupid as to log the miles and the position of this French fortress and miss it by several dozen rivers and a whole damn state!

"Menéndez took advantage of that providential "miracle," as the Spanish interpreted the violent wind, to march north overland and attack Ft. Caroline and its diminished garrison. Reaching the triangular wooden structure after two and a half days of march, Menéndez and his men slew 132 soldiers, sparing the women and youths not under arms." Um, 2.5 days without trails or roads in a freaking hurricane easily eliminates any other location. I say we turn these 'experts' loose in the Osceola National Forest and send them overland to the head of the Suwannee during a hurricane and see how far they get.

These bozo's should be dragged through the streets of Lisbon, Seville, Cartagena, Havana, Veracruz, Cartagena or better yet, ST. AUGUSTINE!

Esos locos viejos gringos de caballos blancos. El caballos también debe de ser gringo.

[JayBird]

I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here.

I feel the same at how years ago without a single shred of archaeological evidence they began teaching that though it's exact location was unknown, it was somewhere in that vicinity of Jacksonville. Add that to the Cowford teachings and most of Jacksonville's history is still unknown and possibly being taught wrong.

[Tacachale]

I found this article.

http://www.examiner.com/article/william-bartram-visited-the-actual-site-of-fort-caroline-georgia

Um, it is pretty inflammatory towards Jacksonville and accuses the local political scene in the 1930's of "cooking" history to get federal dollars during the depression and win votes for Roosevelt.  They accuse the local government once again in the late 60's of coercing funding for the site in return for votes for LBJ.

Same writer did a follow up article here.

http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-highjacks-discovery-of-fort-caroline

I might add that the Fort Caroline site in Jacksonville is a "National Memorial" which much different than a National Landmark". So some of the accusations made in the Examiner article weren't fully vetted.

So anyway....here it is.

William Bartram visited the actual site of Fort Caroline in Georgia

If the evidence was a snake, it would have bitten Florida and Georgia historians many times. On November 20, 2013, a Cherokee historian stumbled upon that snake asleep in a 250 year old book.

It is the greatest historic preservation scam ever in the United States. In the depth of the Great Depression during the 1930s, economic leaders in Jacksonville, Florida were searching for an attraction to draw tourists, headed to St. Augustine and Miami, off of US Highway 1 and into Jacksonville. They needed something that was nationally significant and more "red blooded American" than the Spanish town of St. Augustine. What would be better than the "long-lost site of Fort Caroline," the tragic attempt of French Protestants to establish a place of refuge in the New World?

Fort Caroline was constructed by approximately 250 French colonists in 1564. Most of the colonists were Protestant Huguenots, but it was a government financed project of King Charles of France. Between September 20 and 22, 1565 the majority of colonists were killed in battle or hung by a Spanish army. In 1566 Spanish engineers reconstructed the three sided burned-out ruins of Fort Caroline into a much stronger, four-sided Fort San Mateo. In 1568 a joint French-Native American army killed or hung its Spanish garrison.

The captain of Fort Caroline, Captain René de Laundonnière, stated that Fort Caroline was constructed on an island above the brackish water of tidal marshes, 12 miles upstream from the head of navigation for large sea-going vessels. During the 1730s, Darien, GA was established at the Altamaha River's head of navigation for large sailing ships. By then, the Spanish had been gone from the region for 45 years.

Without a shred of historical or archaeological evidence, Jacksonville's economic leaders and Florida's politicians came together to announce that Fort Caroline was located near Jacksonville. No French, Spanish or English document had ever placed Fort Caroline on the St. Johns River.

All European maps produced in the late 1500s and throughout the 1600s showed Fort Caroline to be a few miles inland on the west side of Georgia's Altamaha River. All French Colonial Era maps labeled the Altamaha River as the May River. This is the name that French Captain René de Laundonnière had given it.

The St. Johns River was not even accessible by ocean-going ships until the 1850s, when the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers dredged a channel through the shallow seven mile outlet of the St. Johns River. Jacksonville's original name was Waterford because humans and livestock were able to walk across the St. Johns River in the vicinity of where Fort Caroline National Monument is now located.

National politics came to bear on the fabrication of history. President Roosevelt needed the support of Florida's powerful senators and representatives to push through the New Deal. Word got out that powerful economic interests were behind this project. Not a single historian or archaeologist raised a public protest against this fabrication of history.

The City of Jacksonville purchased a tract of land that was admirably suited for tourism and called it Fort Caroline's site. There is absolutely nothing about this location that matches De Laundonnière's description, except that it is on the South Atlantic Coast. Jacksonville then purchased a massive tract land at the mouth of the St. Johns and gave it to the United States government for a U. S. Navy base. The base was named Mayport in order to provide "proof" that the St. Johns River was the real May River.

An economic development scheme changes the history books

In the seventy five years since the Fort Caroline deception began, taxpayers money has been repeatedly spent in fruitless archaeological efforts to find some evidence of a 16th century presence of French colonists along the St. Johns River. The National Park Service has expanded the theme of a failed French colony into a regional recreation and cultural attraction. Although the National Park Service makes it clear that the actual location of Fort Caroline is unknown, virtually all books, tourist brochures and web sites call the fake location of Fort Caroline, the actual location. Contemporary detractors of the National Park Service's expenditures in the Jacksonville Area are swatted aside with a response that "no credible eyewitness ever described an alternative location for Fort Caroline."

In 1951 the land purchased by Jacksonville as the site of Fort Caroline was given to the National Park Service to become a national park. After a decade of unsuccessful archaeological investigations, the Johnson Administration agreed to build a scaled-down replica of Fort Caroline in return for Florida Congressional support for the Civil Rights Act. Today, most visitors to Fort Caroline National Monument are completely unaware that they are visiting a fake historic site. Incredibly, in 1966 the Department of Interior put the fake Fort Caroline on the National Register of Historic Places even though nothing of historical note has been found at the site.

René de Laundonnière's book, "Trois Voyages," provides the most detailed and reliable 16th century descriptions of the indigenous peoples of the Lower Southeast. He launched at least six expeditions up the May (Altamaha) River to the Georgia Mountains in order to establish trading relationships with the Indians in the Coastal Plain, Piedmont and Mountains of Georgia. After the arrival of about 600 more colonists, he planned to establish a capital of New France roughly where Athens, GA is now located – at the headwaters of freight canoe travel on the Oconee River. Athens is immediately east of the Georgia Gold Belt.

During the late 20th century, Florida archaeologists and historians used the false location of Fort Caroline as a benchmark to fabricate a complex description of northeast Florida's past. It mixed archaeological facts and sometimes vague Spanish archives with a fabricated history of the French colonial efforts. This has created many misconceptions by the public. It has also put some very amusing passages in books written by the scions of Florida archaeology . . . when they try to equate the Georgia Mountains and Indians described by de Laudonniére to the geography and Native peoples of Florida.

The Natives that the Spanish called the Guale, never called themselves the Guale. The name came from a town named Wahale on St. Catherine's Island, GA. The word means "Southerners" in the Creek language. The Indians that the Spanish called the Timucua never called themselves the Timucua. That word was derived from the Tamacoa Province about 30 miles up the Altamaha River in Georgia. Phonetically, Tamacoa, would sound like Thamagua to English speakers. The Tamacoa spoke a language similar to the provinces in northeast Florida. The tribes at the mouth of the Altamaha spoke a South American language called Tupi. Nevertheless, the Spanish grouped all the provinces into one Spanish administrative province named Timucua.

Sometime in the 1600s the real Tamacoa moved away from the clutches of the Spanish Empire to a tributary of the Oconee River. They joined the Creek Indian Confederacy and continued to live in the same location a few miles north of present day Athens, GA until 1785 when their land was ceded to the United States. The county seat of Jackson County was developed on their village site. It was originally named Thamagua, but is now named Jefferson.

After retired United States Congressman, Charles C. Bennett, published an English translation of De Laudonniére's book, named "Three Voyages," it became the primary reference on Fort Caroline. However, there is a serious problem with his book. Wherever 16th century French and English versions of "Trois Voyages" stated "we paddled up the May River in a northwest direction to reach the Thamagua . . . or . . . to reach the Apalache in the mountains," Bennett deleted the words "in a northwest direction" and "in the mountains." You see, the St. Johns River flows southward and Florida does not have any mountains.

A Cherokee researcher stumbles upon Bartram's eyewitness account

Marilyn Rae is a Cherokee researcher in the People of One Fire. She is a direct descendant of the last hereditary principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, Pathkiller. After co-authoring two books with this writer on the Creek Indians of northern Georgia, Marilyn is deeply absorbed in the research to create the definitive book on the origins and early history of the Cherokee Indians.

On November 20th, 2013, Rae was browsing through "The Travels of William Bartram," an 18th century book, which describes the famous botanist's exploration of the southern British colonies between 1773 and 1776. Rae was astonished to come upon a passage that apparently described the ruins of Fort Caroline and Fort San Mateo . . . exactly where Captain René de Laundonnière said they were. Her discovery will turn the history books upside down and cause a great deal of consternation in the National Park Service. Rae is still astounded that no historian or archaeologist ever realized the significance of Bartram's words. She was looking for Cherokee history, not a political bombshell.

Here it is:

"The north channel, or entrance, glides by the heights of Darien, on the east bank, about ten miles above the bar, and, running from thence with several turnings, enters the ocean between Sapello and Wolf islands. The south channel, which is esteemed the largest and deepest, after its separation from the north, descends gently, winding by M`Intosh's and Broughton islands; and lastly, by the west coast of St. Simon's island, enters the ocean, through St. Simon's Sound, between the south end of the island of that name and the north end of Jekyl Island. On the west banks of the south channel, ten or twelve miles above its mouth, and nearly apposite Darien, are to be seen, the remains of an ancient fort, or fortification; it is now a regular tetragon terrace, about four feet high, with bastions at each angle; the area may contain about an acre of ground, but the fosse which surrounded it is nearly filled up. There are large Live Oaks, Pines, and other trees, growing upon it, and in the old fields adjoining. It is supposed to have been the work of the French or Spaniards. A large swamp lies betwixt it and the river, and a considerable creek runs close by the works, and enters the river through the swamp, a small distance above Broughton Island. "

America does, indeed, have a hidden history.

This is the guy who claimed mounds in Georgia were actually 5-sided Mayan pyramids in Georgia, even though the Mayans aren't known for building 5-sided pyramids, and there are plenty of mounds built by natives throughout the Southeastern US. Fittingly, his Fort Caroline theory relies on there being a conspiracy to cover up the "truth" only he knows. Fletcher Crowe and Anita Spring's hypothesis puts Fort Caroline in a similar place, but it shouldn't be compared to Thornton. Even just from what's in the press releases they're much bigger on the evidence, even though I have very serious doubts they're right.

[Tacachale]

Whether true or not (a plausible hunch, sure, but I have some considerable doubts), as a former archaeologist, I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here. It's a way to garner attention, fame, and perhaps grant money through sensationalism. I hope they're ripped apart by their peers both in the academy and in CRM for the timing of the announcement. (Maybe I should go to the AAA conference this year, after all.)

Yeah, that's definitely odd, especially as they're talking like they've already found the thing before they've found a piece of evidence. It's only a matter of time before other scholars start pointing out the problems with the location, including the ones we've mentioned here.

Screw the French (no insult intended) but where did Pedro Menéndez de Avilés, Place it?  The soldados and fuerzas navales of Spain were not so stupid as to log the miles and the position of this French fortress and miss it by several dozen rivers and a whole damn state!

"Menéndez took advantage of that providential "miracle," as the Spanish interpreted the violent wind, to march north overland and attack Ft. Caroline and its diminished garrison. Reaching the triangular wooden structure after two and a half days of march, Menéndez and his men slew 132 soldiers, sparing the women and youths not under arms." Um, 2.5 days without trails or roads in a freaking hurricane easily eliminates any other location. I say we turn these 'experts' loose in the Osceola National Forest and send them overland to the head of the Suwannee during a hurricane and see how far they get.

These bozo's should be dragged through the streets of Lisbon, Seville, Cartagena, Havana, Veracruz, Cartagena or better yet, ST. AUGUSTINE!

Esos locos viejos gringos de caballos blancos. El caballos también debe de ser gringo.

Haha, preach it, Ock! The news stories haven't given any indication they've accounted for the Spanish records OR the native geography. Unless their presentation has more in that regard, they've got some serious splainin to do.

[Tacachale]

I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here.

I feel the same at how years ago without a single shred of archaeological evidence they began teaching that though it's exact location was unknown, it was somewhere in that vicinity of Jacksonville. Add that to the Cowford teachings and most of Jacksonville's history is still unknown and possibly being taught wrong.

There's plenty of archaeological evidence for native settlement in this area. In fact, there was a cluster of settlements on the St. Johns River from east of Downtown Jax to the ocean, and another further upriver between about Palatka and Lake George. The French sources describe the Saturiwa chiefdom as being located at the mouth of the "River of May" and the Outina as being located up the same river. Plus there's extensive documentary evidence that points to the St. Johns. Any alternative theory is going to have to account for that.

As far as archaeological evidence goes, absence of evidence isn't always evidence of absence. Before Fort Caroline the French built an outpost called Charlesfort in South Carolina. Later, the Spanish built a settlement named Santa Elena on the same site, and it was the capital of Spanish Florida from 1566 to 1587. Though these were hugely important settlements and the general locations were known, archaeological evidence only turned up in the 20th century, and Charlesfort wasn't located until 1996.

In the case of Fort Caroline, there are still many sites on the St. Johns that haven't been searched because they're on private property, and financing and resources also limit how much time can be spent out there searching. Not nearly enough has been done to rule out the St. Johns - let alone to make somewhere as far away as the Altamaha a sure thing.

[Tacachale]

I heard back from Buzz Thunen, the UNF anthropologist who also presented at this conference. He and his colleague Keith Ashley have been spearheading the research on the St. Johns. He doesn't find Crowe and Spring's theory very convincing in light of the French and Spanish documentary evidence, and he and his colleagues will be putting together a response to elaborate on their reservations. He confirmed that they're still looking here on the St. Johns but are limited right now by funding and resources. He did sound hopeful the publicity this has gotten will create some interest in continuing the project.

[JaxByDefault]

A response is great, but we all know how much media attention is garnered by a well-reasoned response with adequate documentation and peer review. It would be great if all this did generate some funding for always-thinning field research budgets.

[Ocklawaha]

Well my friends, De Soto landed near Tampa and marched 400 miles to the area of Tallahassee burning about 40 days, a paltry 10 miles per day. Add one hurricane or severe NorEaster and Menendez pulled off a miracle getting from St. Augustine to Fort Caroline (about 30 miles) in just a couple of days.

The ONLY remotely possible error may lay in the Spanish Name for Fort Caroline being San Mateo (sound familiar?) but then where was the high promontory that Ribault set his column on? There was a large indian mound under the south approach to the Acosta Bridge (Like Fort Picolata we  these shell and tabby places made great highways in the 1920's). Otherwise your stuck with Empire Point, Yellow Bluff and St. Johns Bluff. If this were really for 'tourism' it would have made much more sense to do this at the downtown site... but there are so many questions, such as where is/was the marsh where the Spanish camped? Philips? Spring Park? Pottsburg? Some more attention by the elite diggers of history from our various universities may be in order, watch out Aetna and River City Brewing... here we come! LOL.

[Ocklawaha]

OMG! Tacachale did you catch this one? ROFLMAO!

...There is absolutely nothing about this location that matches De Laundonnière's description, except that it is on the South Atlantic Coast. Jacksonville then purchased a massive tract land at the mouth of the St. Johns and gave it to the United States government for a U. S. Navy base. The base was named Mayport in order to provide "proof" that the St. Johns River was the real May River...

Historians have no recorded date for the original settlement of Mayport Village.  The suggested dates range from 1562 when the French first settled to 1828 when the area really began to grow.  Early settlers of Mayport came from France, Portugal and the island of Minorca.  These people were fishermen and they thrived due to the close proximity of the continental shelf and large quantities of fish. 

Fishing has been the major economic base for the Village, but in the early days Mayport also supported itself through the lumber industry. Mayport Mills was the name of the fishing village until the end of the Civil War.  Mayport was also a well known resort town during the 1800s, gaining a bold reputation with its hotels, prize fighters and taverns.  Tourists from Jacksonville would cruise down the St. Johns River for a scenic ride along the Mayport coast.  Boats would then dock and the passengers would dine or stay overnight. 

The first Union occupation in Jacksonville, Florida began on March 12, 1862 and ended 1864.  The first successful battle of the Union was when the Union naval fleet captured Fernandina to the north and St. Augustine to the south and which allowed the Union to establish a naval base at Mayport Mills.  As a result, naval ships became very active with the freedom of slaves, freedmen and Union supporters Mayport Mills became a temporary refugee settlement.

[Tacachale]

^HAHAHA, every part of that is hilarious. "Jacksonville" buying land outside of Jacksonville and then insisting the Navy give it a particular name, which was made up despite being in use for decades. That kind of thing seems pretty typical of the author's arguments, I'm afraid.

[Tacachale]

Chuck Meide, archaeologist for the Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Project in St. Augustine, has issued a statement skeptical of Crowe and Anita Spring's theory. He's critical largely because of the distance from St. Augustine.

http://www.blogstaugustinelighthouse.org/blog/in_the_news/lamp_disputes_new_fort_carolin.php

During the conference he pointed out to Crowe and Spring that the Spanish were able to make it from St. Augustine to Fort Caroline in 2 days during a hurricane. Crowe responded that they believe the original St. Augustine site was actually on the St. Marys River in Georgia! The theory requires more and more leaps the closer one looks at it.

St. Augustine was in fact moved twice, with the original site located at an Indian village called Seloy. Meide points out that there's no evidence it was ever located on the St. Marys, 70 miles away, but considerable evidence it was located at the Fountain of Youth Archaeological Park, near the modern city.

Meide notes that UNF's Buzz Thunen and John de Bry, paleographer at the Center for Historical Archaeology, pointed out weaknesses in the theory during the conference. It didn't stop the news from getting on board with them, though.

[Ocklawaha]

So they kept moving St. Augustine?! Now THAT is funny. Guess those coquina blocks the Spanish dug up floated? This is really getting silly. "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."