Commuter Rail Study Update

[9a is my backyard]

Wow - this is about as good as I could hope for.  The two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed.  However, I think both UNF and the beaches are both perfect to be served by BRT/express bus.  I think people would prefer to take a train to the beaches, however a clean and efficient BRT would suffice, IMO. 

Let's hope JTA continues to move toward these ideas.

[brainstormer]

Your news Ock is very refreshing.  I can't wait for the "big" announcement!  The news will be positive, uplifting and bring a sense of hope back to our city.  Perhaps in the next year or two we will stop hearing awful phrases like "project delayed" and "indefinitely delayed."  I love that you've been instructed to think big.

[southerngirl]

Hey Ock...when you're "thinking big," will you be sure that the "little people" who have done so much to keep the urban core alive today are looked out for? 

The folks whose homes are in the area of proposed stations in San Marco -- the Emerson/Philips station vs. one at the, not-yet-PUD-approved site of the massive Jackson Sq. apartment/retail complex -- implore those who are considering the station locations to look VERY thoughtfully at the neighborhood impact of a station at River Oaks Road.

This little barely two-lane street with cars parked along it making it a one-lane street, 1) can't handle the cut-through traffic that cripples it today, 2) is already nervous about the doubling of traffic on the street if the PUD for this massive 900+ unit apartment/retail complex is approved as submitted with no restrictions for their traffic and safety impact by the city council in the coming weeks.

The best solution is to close the railroad crossing at River Oaks -- it's dangerous and overcrowded today, and closing it will certainly help maintain the safety of the single-family homes on the west side of those tracks. The neighbors overwhelmingly support the closure, as do FEC Railroad and FDOT.

Also, putting a commuter rail station in at Emerson will significantly reduce the cut through traffic that other small neighborhood roads in San Marco -- Lorimier, Dunsford, etc. -- would have to deal with if a station went in at Jackson Square. An Emerson station makes infinitely more sense from a neighborhood impact perspective.

And, after all, what good will the commuter rail/TOD effort be if the result is to force those who already live in the single family homes in the urban core to move OUT of these neighborhoods because of traffic and safety concerns? The small streets in San Marco simply can't handle the traffic increases. They were never designed to, and any improvements to those streets will include widening, which will put homes mere feet from active arteries, where there used to be yards for kids to play in, there'll be parking pads for cars and utility vehicles.

Sure, build the commuter rail system...but build it smartly, please.

[JeffreyS]

When and if Jackson Sq. is built commuter rail would alleviate traffic not add to it.  I agree we do not want to see residential roads widened.  Keep traffic slow in residential areas to add to the quality of life and limit "cut through routes". 
I do wish the developers would offer some assurances to the current residents about their concerns.

[Ocklawaha]

Number one item, "I'm NOT Kidding!!"

Number two item, This is going to stun even the movers and shakers of this board, in fact, rather like grabbing hold of a 600 volt dc wire!  What is in the tubes is stunning, even for a city like ______________ (fill in the blank) it is STUNNING!

The two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed

As I said, STUNNING, so don't bet the farm on ANYTHING yet.

OCKLAWAHA

[ProjectMaximus]

dammit, Ock!! You made me change my underwear twice already...

can't wait to hear what your news is once it's finalized.

Number one item, "I'm NOT Kidding!!"

Number two item, This is going to stun even the movers and shakers of this board, in fact, rather like grabbing hold of a 600 volt dc wire!  What is in the tubes is stunning, even for a city like ______________ (fill in the blank) it is STUNNING!

The two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed

As I said, STUNNING, so don't bet the farm on ANYTHING yet.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Now here is an interesting, thinking mans image of the Tram Alicante Metropolitano in Spain. If thinking like this doesn't light your fire, your wood's wet.

OCKLAWAHA

[southerngirl]

When and if Jackson Sq. is built commuter rail would alleviate traffic not add to it.  I agree we do not want to see residential roads widened.  Keep traffic slow in residential areas to add to the quality of life and limit "cut through routes". 
I do wish the developers would offer some assurances to the current residents about their concerns.

I wish someone could explain the "commuter rail will alleviate traffic" statement as it relates to the neighborhoods surrounding rail/bus stations. 

I GET that it will hopefully take cars off the major roads, but people who live more than a few blocks' walk away (1/2 mile or more) from a station WILL take their car to the station to hop the ride - to St. Augustine, to Riverside, to wherever the line goes.

For instance, for a San Marco station -- think about how people in San Marco (near the Square), St. Nicholas, Miramar, and Grenada would get to the station. They would drive there, park their cars, ride the rail/bus, then get back in their cars and go the few miles home.

To get to a Jackson Sq. station, their cars would go have to go down small streets - River Oaks mainly, but also Lorimier and Dunsford - to get to the station. And they'd be doing that while all of the other cut-through commuters are doing the same thing. On River Oaks, with a traffic light on one end and a railroad crossing on the other -- the likelihood of gridlock is high. Again, there are cars parked along this little road and it's a maze today. Put 100+ more cars on it and the nightmare scenario becomes real...every day. Twice a day. And that's NOT COUNTING the 900+ apartment dwellers and retail shoppers going to/from the development.

On the other hand, if there was a station at Emerson, the commuter traffic would be traveling down the appropriately-sized streets -- Emerson, Philips, St. Augustine -- to get to that station.

The developer would do well to be honest and forthright about the impact their behemoth of a development is going to have on small neighborhoods nearby and do all in their power to take concrete steps to lessen the negative impact.

[tufsu1]

I don't see why there is an assumption that traffic from Jackson Square will go through the neighborhoods...

If coming from/to downtown, I would use 95 to US 1....if coming from the northern part of San Marco, I would use Atlantic to US 1....and if coming from the south, I would use Emerson to US 1.

It seems to me that the main people who would use River Oaks are those who live on it!

As for driving to commuter rail stations, this won't be an option at some of the stations because they will have limited (if any) parking....what likely happens is JTA redesigns the bus system to serve as feeder routes to the commuter rail system.

[thelakelander]

Simple solution here.  Just close the River Oaks crossing.  If this is done, traffic would then use Old St. Augustine Road, Atlantic Blvd and Philips Highway to access Jackson Square and whatever else would be going there.

Also, from the commuter rail station list, stops at Jackson Square and San Marco were not recommended.  The closest conceptual potential rail stop would be Emerson and one near Aetna on the Southbank.  I guess this means they hope Jackson Square will become a BTOD (BRT TOD).

Last but not least, all rail stations don't have to come with park and ride lots.  An urban station relying on walk up traffic (generally those within 1/4 mile walk of a station) would not increase automobile traffic on any side streets.

[southerngirl]

I don't see why there is an assumption that traffic from Jackson Square will go through the neighborhoods...

If coming from/to downtown, I would use 95 to US 1....if coming from the northern part of San Marco, I would use Atlantic to US 1....and if coming from the south, I would use Emerson to US 1.

It seems to me that the main people who would use River Oaks are those who live on it!

Here's hoping that in the near future - once that dangerous, overcrowded crossing is closed -- the people who live on River Oaks will become the only ones who need to use it.

In the meantime, you're invited to come on over some weekday between 7-9 a.m. and 4-6 p.m. and watch the "real" traffic for yourself.  Even without the "attraction" of Jackson Sq, we've got traffic coming from Mandarin, San Jose and all points across San Marco using River Oaks b/c it's a "convenient" cut-through to Philips/95.

[JeffreyS]

I wish someone could explain the "commuter rail will alleviate traffic" statement as it relates to the neighborhoods surrounding rail/bus stations. 

If the 900 apartment dwellers use the train instead of cars you won't have as much traffic as without the rail. If the single family homes use the rail the commutes will only be a few minutes in   the car. If the shopping at Jackson sq. is a destination people can reach by rail less will use cars. No development would have the least traffic but in this growing city that is not an option.

[southerngirl]

I wish someone could explain the "commuter rail will alleviate traffic" statement as it relates to the neighborhoods surrounding rail/bus stations. 

If the 900 apartment dwellers use the train instead of cars you won't have as much traffic as without the rail. If the single family homes use the rail the commutes will only be a few minutes in   the car. If the shopping at Jackson sq. is a destination people can reach by rail less will use cars. No development would have the least traffic but in this growing city that is not an option.

Sorry, but that logic just doesn't work.

1. Be honest: do you think all 900+ apartment dwellers are going to use the train/bus? The proposed commuer rail designs I've seen are extremely exciting, but they do not and cannot reach all corners of this city/area where people work, or shop, or go to the doctor. There will not be a mass conversion to rail only.
2. The people who live in San Jose, Miramar, etc. and want to visit the retail shops at Jackson Sq. will not HAVE rail/bus to use to get to it. They'll have to drive. AND THEY WILL USE RIVER OAKS to do so.

[thelakelander]

The solution: Just close the River Oaks crossing.  If people want to get to Jackson Square by car, they'll use Philips and other major connectors to reach the destination.  If River Oaks residents want to walk to Jackson Square, they still can.

[RiversideGator]

Number one item, "I'm NOT Kidding!!"

Number two item, This is going to stun even the movers and shakers of this board, in fact, rather like grabbing hold of a 600 volt dc wire!  What is in the tubes is stunning, even for a city like ______________ (fill in the blank) it is STUNNING!

The two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed

As I said, STUNNING, so don't bet the farm on ANYTHING yet.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock:  Any word on when the announcement will be made?  PM me if necessary.