Commuter Rail Study Update

[thelakelander]

I LOVE this, I hope it really happens.

HOWEVER, i don't understand is why UNF is not a stop?? There are tons of college kids that live on campus without cars that would use this system! They could even make the ticket machines accept OspreyCards! Gah!!! Come on JTA!!!

The major fault of this would most likely have to fall on the shoulders of those who decided to relocate UNF's campus from the downtown core to its current location, a few decades ago.  Now the campus is located in a remote spot and surrounded by wetlands that can only be reached by car.

The JTA commuter rail study only focuses on taking advantage of existing rail corridors.  In the short term, if Jax ever wants rail, we're going to have to pick a spot to get started, start small and agressively expand as the system grows in popularity.  The most affordable options will be in areas where existing tracks already exists and in spots where there's decent population density and walkable destinations.  Unfortunately for UNF, unless the city is willing to fund a multi-billion dollar system (highly doubtful) its location puts it in a position of where it will have to be a part of some long range new alignment or BRT/express bus connection via JTB.

[Joe]

The major fault of this would most likely have to fall on the shoulders of those who decided to relocate UNF's campus from the downtown core to its current location, a few decades ago.  Now the campus is located in a remote spot and surrounded by wetlands that can only be reached by car.

It's also worth noting that UNF's current "master plan" specifically promotes the fact that the campus is auto-dependent, and cut off from all other development. They strongly wish to maintain the ring of woods surrounding campus, and not directly connect themselves with other Southside developments. So don't expect UNF to change anytime soon.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm glad to see that the commuter rail study is still moving forward. I still hope that economic realities will eventually force the city to abandon BRT in favor of commuter rail.

Honestly, I can't think of a single sane reason why anyone would attempt the current BRT plan instead of this commuter rail route. (Except for the painfully obvious subtext that a BRT line could be cannibalized into highway HOV lanes - which is probably the only real reason that BRT ever gained traction in the first place)

[thelakelander]

My ultimate fear is that JTA would consider attempting to do both, side by side, thus ruining the ridership potential for BRT and rail.  These things have to complement each other.  Imo, this means BRT lanes should provide direct access to areas where tracks don't exist.  Currently, only the Arlington/Regency BRT route does this.  The others all parallel the rail lines shown in this study. 

Best case scenerio:  Scrap 3 of 4 BRT routes, implement the three rail corridors and use BRT/Express bus routes on streets like Arlington Expressway (service drives), 103rd, JTB, Busch, Airport Center, etc.

[Doctor_K]

^
8 Shades of Brilliance, sir.  Since they already have "Air JTA," they could simply run regular buses from the proposed Duval Rd/Airport/(whatever the heck the name of that outdoor mall is) Station up to the Airport and still use the monicker.

BRT Stops along JTB near each arterial interchange (San Pablo, Kernan, Gate, Southpoint) feeding into the aforementioned stop at JTB/Philips.  Brilliant.

Since we're dreaming/envisioning, would the 'Arlington Expressway' BRT route stop at Regency, or run the length of Atlantic out towards the Beaches?  I mean for a 'starter' route?

And would it be feasible to run one down the length of Beach as well?  Or would the parallel so close to Atlantic and JTB prove to be overkill?

[tufsu1]

It's also worth noting that UNF's current "master plan" specifically promotes the fact that the campus is auto-dependent, and cut off from all other development. They strongly wish to maintain the ring of woods surrounding campus, and not directly connect themselves with other Southside developments. So don't expect UNF to change anytime soon.

Its kind of hard to connect to other development when the "ring of woods" is comprised of wetlands and environmentally preserved land.

[RiversideGator]

It is a great plan, I agree.  I am a little disappointed that they chose the FCCJ Kent Campus as a stop (which is sort of isolated on the edge of Avondale next to Roosevelt) rather than Edgewood Avenue site as a stop (which would tie Avondale and Murray Hill into the system.  Otherwise, I am very pleased with it and hope this moves forward as soon as possible.

On the topic of the eventual line to the Beaches, maybe the electrical right of ways are wide enough to add transit too.  Is this possible, Ock?  I agree with Lake though that we need to focus on getting the initial lines built first and worry about that later.

[thelakelander]

It is a great plan, I agree.  I am a little disappointed that they chose the FCCJ Kent Campus as a stop (which is sort of isolated on the edge of Avondale next to Roosevelt) rather than Edgewood Avenue site as a stop (which would tie Avondale and Murray Hill into the system.  Otherwise, I am very pleased with it and hope this moves forward as soon as possible.

I missed this one.  I'm disappointed with this as well.  Imo, Edgewood is ideal for an urban rail stop.  On the other hand, its understandable that FCCJ Kent would become a popular stop during school hours.  This may be a situation where two nearby stations make sense.

On the topic of the eventual line to the Beaches, maybe the electrical right of ways are wide enough to add transit too.  Is this possible, Ock?  I agree with Lake though that we need to focus on getting the initial lines built first and worry about that later.

From my analysis, the electrical right of ways aren't right-of-ways.  A significant portion are easements over private property.  Near Baymeadows this private property serves as parking for office complexes.  There's also no direct connection between the FEC tracks and the nearest electrical substation, unless we blaze a path through an industrial plant.  Once you get near the beaches, the JEA easements travel into upscale single family homes and environmentally sensitive areas.  Could it be done?  Sure, but it will cost a pretty penny.  With that said, at least in the short term, there are more feasible options out there.

[thelakelander]

Since we're dreaming/envisioning, would the 'Arlington Expressway' BRT route stop at Regency, or run the length of Atlantic out towards the Beaches?  I mean for a 'starter' route?

An initial line to Regency, as JTA suggests, would be fine.  However, it makes little economic sense to build it elevated in the center of the Arlington Expressway, when there are service roads already in place.  A cheaper way to get BRT to Regency would be to convert both service roads to one-way streets and use the right lanes for BRT.  The major expense here would be repainting lines and changing signs and traffic signals.  With the money saved, we could then use a portion to build an additional overpass or two between Arlington Road and Southside Blvd.  This would allow auto and foot traffic to cross Arlington Expressway without driving a mile or two in the wrong direction to do so.  This would also solve the issue of people crossing the Arlington Expressway on foot.

And would it be feasible to run one down the length of Beach as well?  Or would the parallel so close to Atlantic and JTB prove to be overkill?

It would have been nice if the new lanes on Beach were built as BRT.  Now dedicated lanes on Beach would mean road expansion, so that may not be feasible.  However, there's no reason Beach can't be used for express bus service.  If the rail corridors are used as mass transit spines, it would then allow us to take all of our existing bus service and reduce headways to areas like the beach and UNF, since those lines would not have to travel to the downtown hub.  Instead they would feed their riders into the nearest rail station.

[brainstormer]

So many brilliant comments, I don't know where to start!  I agree that JTA needs to think of mass transit as a whole.  All different modes of transportation must compliment each other, not duplicate service.  I guess that seems like economic common sense to me.  BRT should be reserved for areas heading east and west where building rail lines is not financially feasible at this time (Arlington, Beach, JTB etc). 

I'm not sure how they will get statistics for potential ridership, but I believe that most people with a choice would rather ride rail instead of bus.  The ultimate potential for commuter rail will only be reached if JTA works out the rail station connections to surrounding neighborhoods.  Will they rework bus lines to create more access?  Initially most people won't be able to walk to the train station, although as we see in Charlotte, Denver and many other cities around the US, rail stations create a lot of residential development within walking distance.  Parking lots are helpful but there must be many other options.  An example would be covered bike racks so you could ride your bike to and from the station.  Downtown should have it's streetcar line from the station to the stadium etc.

JTA should be putting all it's resources into getting our rail starter line.  It would be a HUGE deal and jump start our city. 

[JeffreyS]

if we get this commuter rail and nothing else I will be satified for a long time. However as mass transit build on itself the more you do the better the return.

[Ocklawaha]

A retired "Brill Bullet" car in NJ, these once ran to the Beach in Ohio at 100 MPH plus and had room for beach balls, and a lounge!!

While I am collecting confidential information and interviews at a dizy rate, all I can say is hold on to your seats and get excited... IN FACT... GET VERY EXCITED!

I might be making a major move myself here in the next few and I'll let you know when we go public with it, meanwhile, watch for streetcars to get the fast-track treatment and bump BRT to feeder status.

They told me to think big... So I mentioned San Marco streetcars... bigger... so we covered Riverside and the Stadium... not even warm yet? Your kidding? REALLY? This thing is moving faster then a Cincinnati and Lake Erie Electric Railway RED DEVIL, racing an airplane... We're winning this one y'all. Keep watching for the latest news, but I'm here to tell you this is HUGE and very serious.

My promise? Well should I end up as part of the planning/management team, you can bet we plan to hit the ground RUNNING! (I refuse to oppose common sense) Just take heart, and raise the battle emblem, it's time to slay the dragons.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

How am I supposed to sleep now?

[RiversideGator]

While I am collecting confidential information and interviews at a dizy rate, all I can say is hold on to your seats and get excited... IN FACT... GET VERY EXCITED!

I might be making a major move myself here in the next few and I'll let you know when we go public with it, meanwhile, watch for streetcars to get the fast-track treatment and bump BRT to feeder status.

They told me to think big... So I mentioned San Marco streetcars... bigger... so we covered Riverside and the Stadium... not even warm yet? Your kidding? REALLY? This thing is moving faster then a Cincinnati and Lake Erie Electric Railway RED DEVIL, racing an airplane... We're winning this one y'all. Keep watching for the latest news, but I'm here to tell you this is HUGE and very serious.

My promise? Well should I end up as part of the planning/management team, you can bet we plan to hit the ground RUNNING! (I refuse to oppose common sense) Just take heart, and raise the battle emblem, it's time to slay the dragons.

OCKLAWAHA

Wow!  Very exciting news.  I hope you are not just messing with us about this.   

[RiversideGator]

If Peyton is smart, he could latch onto rail transit (commuter rail and streetcars) and make implementing this the signature accomplishment for which he is known.  Every Mayor has had a signature project and this would be a great one for Peyton.  In fact, if he can get what Ock suggests done (or even just stay out of the way), all would be forgiven.   

[JeffreyS]

If Peyton is smart, he could latch onto rail transit (commuter rail and streetcars) and make implementing this the signature accomplishment for which he is known.  Every Mayor has had a signature project and this would be a great one for Peyton.  In fact, if he can get what Ock suggests done (or even just stay out of the way), all would be forgiven.   

You are so right.  History would be so kind to him if he could glom onto this.