Reinvigorating the Jacksonville Landing

[IrvAdams]

Perhaps it should focus on food and entertainment, retail is tough there for the time being.

[ProjectMaximus]

Theme Park downtown? That could be a fantastic economic driver if it were successful but I doubt such a thing is feasible. I like the big dreaming though! Reminds me of the Mooneyhan Production Studios/Theme Park proposal for downtown, or the Shipyards gondola across the river. Very cool stuff.

Perhaps on the same level of fantasy but still very cool is the "JAX" climbing wall along the river that would be the tallest climbing wall in the world.

Back on topic, im with everyone for opening up the middle to connect the river and courtyard with the rest of downtown. Also would expect it to better as a mixed use building rather than the boutique retail angle.

[Jaxson]

^Pretty much.  A small mall with no major anchors. One of the reasons novelty wore off was because the overall product being offered was inferior to the larger regional malls (like the Avenues) that opened across the country around the same time.  Festival marketplaces that were not located in cities where there were already tons of tourist and foot traffic basically died.

In an organic sense, I suppose that it would be an uphill challenge to create an artificial demand for a festival marketplace in an area that does not have an existing customer base.  It is one thing to create a festival marketplace that supplements an already thriving area but it is asking too much IMHO to expect a festival marketplace to be a panacea for an already dying downtown.

[ricker]

^Pretty much.  A small mall with no major anchors. One of the reasons novelty wore off was because the overall product being offered was inferior to the larger regional malls (like the Avenues) that opened across the country around the same time.  Festival marketplaces that were not located in cities where there were already tons of tourist and foot traffic basically died.

In an organic sense, I suppose that it would be an uphill challenge to create an artificial demand for a festival marketplace in an area that does not have an existing customer base.  It is one thing to create a festival marketplace that supplements an already thriving area but it is asking too much IMHO to expect a festival marketplace to be a panacea for an already dying downtown.

Do you think that the mother of all theme parks (if ever built straddling the river including the old ship yards near Maxwell House, to the JEA site near Channel 4) could draw a large enough crowd on a regular basis if it were open year round, as opposed to our little once a year fair?

I know the thread topic is the Landing, but I just don't think of it as an island.
To me, its revival and survival involves so many other moving parts, I agree.

In my mind the Jacksonville Terminal is a relevant topic.
The "Regional Transportation Center".
Greyhound comes to mind.
Ruminations of the future of our convention center site populate.
Amtrak vs our "Amshack"
Skyway.
BRT.
Streetcar.
Trolley routes.
Artwalk.
Foodtrucks.
The agricultural aspects of the county fair.
The fate of Metropolitan Park.
The boat ramp at River City Brewing Co.
The Cummer reno.
Any Riverwalk extension.
Beacon Riverside.
The need to better highlight, connect and more fully utilize the currently existing parking structures.
^ including Kings Ave on the south bank.
The parador partners garage.
Any possible addition of more adequate mooring / boat slips / mini marina or full service?
Removing the Laura Street end wedge of the current 126k sqft

I guess I may always dream of a giant theme park with a downtown and a river running through it.
I can see it with my mind's eye and  i am in love with what I see.
Oh well.

[Charles Hunter]

To save them from posting, I provide the Landing Solutions by some of our favorite posters*:
Noone - kayak rental and launch sites instead of all those power-boats
Ocklawaha - run a train through it (but no PCTs)
stephendare - rebuild some ramshackle docks

All said in fun, I enjoy reading all of your posts, and you are each certainly more than the one dimension presented here. 

[tufsu1]

Its a mall...thats all it is..a shopping mall...

with some pretty sweet views

[ronchamblin]

Opening up the area so that one can see the river while walking on Laura Street is a great idea.  A long view across a river is always pleasant.  And we all seem tired of entering a rather stifling, arcade-like, mini-mall.  Other than that, its difficult to imagine the ideal use of the space -- especially given that one finds on adjacent blocks mostly large buildings with boring ground levels.

Only by being about twenty times larger, allowing for a super mall, would retail be successful.  Any mall these days must offer spectacular choice -- especially given existing alternatives in competing super malls and the ever growing Internet environment, the latter having become a cancer upon most established retail.  Retail in the area seems to be out of the picture, except for occasional niche types.   

Restaurants and night life seems feasible, tying into the growing SIN STRIP along east Bay.  A tastefully done "Gentleman's Club" might do well, and would provide a good balance to the large church presence at the other end of Laura. 

Yes -- definitely...  opening up the landing right down the center, with structures along the sides, would provide a pleasant river view from several blocks up Laura.  And in the interest of education, offer museums -- nautical, aeronautical, science/technology (We need education in Jax... especially on Laura.. not more bimbo fluff) -- three or four good restaurants -- three or four niche specialty shops --- a tastefully done gentleman's club .. serving alcohol and pot (when its legal).  Might  be room for  a small park (couple of big oaks) area for relaxation... for the homeless and vagrants... and a small stage for music performances... boxing... wrestling... Bill Maher.  There you go.  Problem solved... for free.

[thelakelander]

I can't imagine a realistic scenario where a miniature theme park in downtown would be remotely feasible or encourage decent interaction between its gates and the rest of downtown. It would be one of those places you visit once and never return again and they'd be so cramped on land, they'd lose market share as all the larger, more well known competitors two hours away (Disney, Universal, Legoland, Sea World, Busch Gardens, etc.), continue to utilize their clout to remain "fresh." A miniature theme park downtown would be equivalent to the Landing trying to compete with SJTC as a regional retail destination. Essentially, I think you'd be lighting your investment money on fire.

As for the Landing, I probably fall in the camp of believing we don't need to over complicate this. The assets appear to be the location, waterfront dining and the central courtyard.  The liabilities appear to be dedicated parking, the enclosed horse shoe mall, a food court that takes up valuable real estate and a lack of connectivity with the rest of downtown to the north.

Thus preserve your assets and focus on turning your liabilities around.  I have no magic want, one-trick pony gimmicks or anything new to offer that hasn't been mentioned over the last decade. That food court space should be converted into waterfront sit-down restaurant space, and the courtyard should be opened to the street. This has the double benefit of making it a better live entertainment venue/central gathering space and better integrating the complex with downtown. With the mall, I'd probably explore flipping it inside out, and utilizing the structure for a few bigger boxes that could compliment the Landing and the surrounding downtown population. Potential uses for such space could include anything from a pharmacy like CVS or Walgreens to the bowling alley concept Coles has mentioned being interested in. There's also the opportunity to turn the Hogan Street area into a revenue generating space. Right now, it's really underutilized. However, what I've just mentioned isn't anything that hasn't been said before. Sleiman has the same opportunity as Hallmark does with Unity Plaza and 220 Riverside, but situated in a location that can draw from the high density uses surrounding it in the Northbank.

Dedicated parking will still be an issue though. I just wish that the Parador garage could have been designed to accommodate the Landing's needs and everything else in the immediate area as a centralized parking facility.  Then all the other surface lots in the surrounding blocks (including the Landing's east lot) could become game for redevelopment as well.

[I-10east]

IMO somewhere the suburbs would be better suited for an amusement park than downtown; IMO the negatives outweigh the pros with downtown amusement parks, like limited parking, limited room for expansion, etc. I probably can count all of the downtown amusement parks in the US on one hand; I'm not talking about just a large ferris wheel sorta thing, but an actual amusement park with atleast one big coaster, multiple flatrides etc. The first downtown park that comes to mind is Elitch Gardens in Denver. For some reason, there seem to be alot of overseas amusement parks that are downtown usually long-time established though, in places like the Far East. 

[ronchamblin]

Walked down to the landing this morning.  Digested Lakes post ... and agree with him for the most part.
 
Most agree that "opening" up Laura to the river would be a big plus.. a necessary thing right up front.

What next?  Perhaps, given the existing lack of permanent foot traffic, and unless somebody has lots of millions... not much more should be done initially.

For a time, keep the existing rectangular, two-story buildings in place, with some appropriate facade improvements.  Plant some grass, and two or three oak trees, and meander some brick walkways through it, and see what happens.

The increase in overall attractiveness might increase the visitors to the area.  But, no matter what, Sleiman must make reasonable rents from the real estate.  How will this be done? 

Placing residential apartments on the second levels?  Encouraging basic retail such as a CVS into the area?  In any case, it would be good to keep several good restaurants.

Parking?  Short term? ..... walk a little. 

Parking .. long term?.... Do rail or street car mass transit thing .... to San Marco.... Riverside....Arlington... The Beaches.... To the suburbs.  This will solve lots of problems... including parking, pollution, and overall core vibrancy goals.

After things settle by opening the center, would be great to replace the existing rectangular buildings, first on the west side, then the east, with retro-looking brick buildings... to match what is remaining of the beautiful brick buildings built 100 years ago.  Perhaps they could be about 300 feet long, four to six stories high, paralleling Laura, with the ground floor opened to the center, and provide condos or apartments ... retail at the ground floor.  They would not be curved, as is the modern way; but rectangular, with the ends being directed outward, providing a venture effect... giving a more open feeling.

I get the feeling that, as Lake indicated, there is not a quick and easy solution to bringing the landing area to a dynamic operation.  The core remains, still, on the border of being dead.  As I've said earlier, until "somehow" more "people" are permanent in the core, in the way of residents, workers, and visitors ... there will be few types of businesses which can actually survive and prosper in it.

Amusement Park kind of thing?   Uggg.   

[river4340]

Looks like everyone's with the idea of opening it up to Laura Street and the river. I don't know about residences there.

http://members.jacksonville.com/business/2013-12-08/story/what-should-landing-be-owners-vision-includes-direct-river-view-and

[jaxjags]

Parking .. long term?.... Do rail or street car mass transit thing .... to San Marco.... Riverside....Arlington... The Beaches.... To the suburbs.  This will solve lots of problems... including parking, pollution, and overall core vibrancy goals

Interesting how on most DT subjects have one constant thread. Street Car. I agree with Ron and others that this will mix the urban neighborhoods and lead to improved vibrancy. Also as Lakelander has promoted, infill development. Trolley system and bus systems will not have the same effect.

[mtraininjax]

Hey, I agree, people SHOULD walk more in Jax. but this is not about the people of Jax, it is about what Sleiman was promised and what the previous owners were promised when the landing was built, a parking deck. He can show you all the grand plans and opening up the landing down Laura Street, which would be cool, but repeatedly, he has said, he wants the parking deck that was promised. I don't see anything changing on the structure, until the deck gets built across the street.

This city cannot afford to pay its police and firemen, what makes you think they have the budget for a street car?

[thelakelander]

Different funding mechanisms. You can't spend mobility money on funding police and fire.

[mtraininjax]

You can't spend mobility money on funding police and fire.

Right you are, but then it does not matter about mobility money if the city declares bankruptcy because it cannot meet its obligations.