Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[thelakelander]

It's no secret the rest of the country views us as backwards, which does impact us economically. It's stuff like this that reinforces that belief.

Imagine a high school in the city's heavily Jewish Mandarin neighborhood named after Hitler, or an elementary school in New York City honoring Osama Bin Laden? Many of us feel no different having a school in the city named after Forrest.

Ditto.

[Cheshire Cat]

There is another in the game as well, a Jon Sackerson, Forrest supporter and someone who internet research shows comes up under the self proclaimed nomer....Jon.Sackerson.being a smart ass at Chamblin's Book Mine.  Below find his letter to the editor of T.U.  What's more telling of the agenda is that he states he was "tutoring" a student. One tutors to help kids with problems, not to exploit the fact that they share with the tutor that math for them is difficult without a calculator.   


http://jacksonville.com/opinion/premium-opinion/2013-10-22/story/letters-keep-forrest-high-school-name-reader-says

Recently I was tutoring a Forrest High School student in algebra and asked her to take two-thirds of 75. Her response was she couldn't do it without her calculator.

My point is that there are far more pressing problems at that school and systemwide than the name of the school.

The editorial board of this paper would have you believe that changing the name would somehow be a solution to some social evil inflicted to retard or stop the educational progress of the students who attend Forrest.

The absolute truth is that the 57 percent minority black students who attend Forrest probably had no idea who Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest was or what he allegedly did. They are kids. They could not care less.

That is until some race hustler from up North moved here and taught them to see the difference.

My point is that racism, prejudice and bias are all learned behaviors taught by adults. If the adults stayed out of it, the children who attend Forrest High School could get a quality education.

If we take the advice of the Times-Union editorial board, then the next step would naturally be to change the name of Andrew Jackson High School.

Jackson, hero of the Battle of New Orleans, actually fought the battle months after the war was over. He was responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent British and Scottish soldiers. When he was president, he was responsible for the infamous "Trail of Tears," the forced removal of American Indians from east of the Appalachians to barren wasteland in the Oklahoma territory.

This resulted in the death of thousands of innocent Native American men, women and children.

Just like Forrest, Jackson had no direct connection with the school or the city of Jacksonville. That calls into question the name of the city of Jacksonville.

We need to have a Native American activist move to town and start a nationwide Internet petition so that the newspaper can get on board and right this terrible wrong.

Once the name is changed, the Jags will win the Super Bowl. Mayor Alvin Brown will submit a balanced budget. Property taxes will decline. The homeless will find homes, and Hemming Plaza will become a showplace.

This school superintendent has many more problems than renaming a school. If he doesn't see this, then let's start the nationwide search now for someone who gets it.

Jon Sackerson, Jacksonville

[Cheshire Cat]

It's not secret the rest of the country views us as backwards, which does impact us economically. It's stuff like this that reinforces that belief.

Imagine a high school in the city's heavily Jewish Mandarin neighborhood named after Hitler, or an elementary school in New York City honoring Osama Bin Laden? Many of us feel no different having a school in the city named after Forrest.

Ditto.

It does impact us horribly Ennis and it is still impacting us as we see historic Black neighborhoods demolished and their history forgotten while some clowns scream about southern history being lost.  News Flash!!!! Local Black history "is" Southern history which is why I fought so hard to save Brewster Hospital, the first Black hospital in the entire south east from demolition.  It survived the great fire of 1901 but nearly was destroyed by apathy and the agenda to erase the Harlem of the South, which we all know is LaVilla.

[BridgeTroll]

Since we are all interested in facts.  Here is probably the best source.  Facinating reading though I have not been through it all.  What is very clear is the former confederate states were a mess following the war.  Looks to me like there were numerous, "unions", "Leagues", "Clans", etc that filled the power vacumn... who were not from the north.  We were lucky as a country to survive...

http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&source=gbs_navlinks_s

[Sgarey123]

Let me read all this nonsense later tonight....then you guys can scramble again to turn things to fit the witch hunt.

You guys are so funny. Ican only imagine what I could do if several people were smearing and researching with me.

[thelakelander]

Lol, the info from a source you introduced into the discussion is now nonsense. I understand, it's difficult to paint this guy as a boy scout that was loved and admired by every Tom, Dick and Harry south of the Mason Dixon. Nevertheless, it's okay to accept that NBF was a white supremacist who was no better than Hitler to those he and his buddies terrorized in Tennessee.  You'll be able to sleep better at night when the day comes that his name is stripped from that school.

[BridgeTroll]

Let me read all this nonsense later tonight....then you guys can scramble again to turn things to fit the witch hunt.

You guys are so funny. Ican only imagine what I could do if several people were smearing and researching with me.

I do not have a dog in this fig... err... discussion and there is no smear.  The book is...

Report of the Joint Select Committee Appointed to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States: So Far as Regards the Execution of the Laws, and the Safety of the Lives and Property of the Citizens of the United States and Testimony Taken, Volume 1

It was commissioned by the US Congress to ...


This report contains many items... only one small part of it is regarding the KKK and Forrests possible involvement.  It is 632 pages long... a treasure trove of data regarding the post war south...

[Cheshire Cat]

Let me read all this nonsense later tonight....then you guys can scramble again to turn things to fit the witch hunt.

You guys are so funny. Ican only imagine what I could do if several people were smearing and researching with me.

I do not have a dog in this fig... err... discussion and there is no smear.  The book is...

Report of the Joint Select Committee Appointed to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States: So Far as Regards the Execution of the Laws, and the Safety of the Lives and Property of the Citizens of the United States and Testimony Taken, Volume 1

It was commissioned by the US Congress to ...


This report contains many items... only one small part of it is regarding the KKK and Forrests possible involvement.  It is 632 pages long... a treasure trove of data regarding the post war south...

Ah Bridge Troll you have entered into a world where information is "smear" even if that source of information was first offered by the person now calling it "smear".  Bizarre isn't it?  lol

[Sgarey123]

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.


So I go back to the link I posted as a response to you goons. This passage explains the committee:

"During the summer of 1871 Forrest was summoned to Washington, D.C., to testify before a congressional committee which was investigating the activities of the Klan. The testimony took place on June 27. By 1871 Tennessee had been under the control of conservative Democrats for two years and several other Southern states had also ended the rule of Radical Republicans. A bill passed by congress had made membership in the Klan a crime and this law had been firmly enforced in those states where Radical rule remained in place. This Federal intervention brought the Klan to its knees so that it was no longer an effective force by 1872.[18] Thus, when Forrest appeared before the Congressional committee he had to be very careful in answering their questions. Popular opinion identified him with the Klan, even made him its leader, and although no legal evidence could be brought as proof against him, Forrest knew that the committee would be quite willing to place the worst possible interpretation on anything he said.

During his testimony Forrest gave answers which revealed he knew things about the Klan which would be knowledge available only to insiders. He also refused to answer some questions, and dodged some others. On the basis of this performance some historians assume that Forrest was an insider, that he was the Grand Wizard of the Klan. Although stated as facts these are merely assumptions and assertions. It is also possible that Forrest knew men who were active in the Klan and that he got his information from them without himself being personally involved. It is also asserted that Forrest could not have helped bring an end to the Klan unless he was a member, and probably the head, of the Klan. Such assertions ignore the influence Forrest had on many former Confederates; many men admired Forrest and would have been willing to follow his advice even if he was not the titular head of the organization."

One has to wonder, if this committee did not find him guilty then what the heck are you guys talking about this anymore? I dug in and I tore your little smear logic apart.  You guys are building a case to lynch a man post mortem with nothing more than heresay. If the "pale faces" were the Klan then DONT YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE ARRESTED FORREST!

He certainly DID NOT believe the Pale Faces were the Klan. You must remember this man denied them. He denied being in the Klan but everyone wanted him to be in it; Both sides. Even today you guys drool over the concept.

He even describes the differences of the "pale faces" and the other groups in his testimony. He said he only visited 2 times by invitation in Memphis. He indicated they had completely different customs etc.

What everyone has failed to do in this thread is look at "why" these groups were created. This transcript explains that very well. It explains the chaos going on in those days. You had 2 armies that had just witnessed the bloodiest war every fought turned loose, you have 1/7th of the southern population newly freedmen, the state governments were erased (for the 14th amendment to pass) and turned into territories. It was pure chaos. It was mob rule. 

There were the beginnings of Race war going on at the time. They talk about it in the committee. Louisiana, Arkansas, etc. 

Most of these organizations at the time were no more than vigilante groups trying to defend their women, children and property from harm. 

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a leader with a level head. He was the only person on both sides of the war to rise through the ranks from Private to General. That says something guys. He is worthy of a school name. No trumped up spin masters can say otherwise without lying.

[Sgarey123]

Bridgetroll,

I did not mean to say your information was non-sense.  It just happened that I posted right after you. Read your source and learn about what it really was like in the South in the post war time.  It was not pretty.  The testimony of Nathan Bedford Forrest at the committee is very revealing. I shutter to think how many women were raped and how many families property stolen and redistributed.

The nonsense I spoke of comes from Lakelander, Dare, and the crazy delusional smearcat lady. Nothing I post will convince them that what they propose as fact is either dead wrong or theory.

I knew after I posted the BEST SOURCE for winning this discussion that they would try to turn and spin. They certainly do struggle when the facts presented do not fit their theory.

[thelakelander]

Read your source and learn about what it really was like in the South in the post war time.  It was not pretty.  The testimony of Nathan Bedford Forrest at the committee is very revealing. I shutter to think how many women were raped and how many families property stolen and redistributed.

Being a descendant of slaves on both sides of my family, you've accurately described what my ancestors had to go through because of guys like NBF. Life wasn't pretty before the war or after it.  Even around the time Jax was still opening illegal all white schools, my parent's generation still speaks of the fears they had and injustices encountered when passing through rural areas of the South that where Jim Crow was alive and well.

I also shutter to think how many women and men were raped, killed and families split because they were not viewed as equals. Many here have spoken of having distant relatives that fought with guys like Forrest. Well I'm from a segment of the South where some of my relatives were lynched because of the color of their skin and raped by their plantation owners. Despite all of this, local history shows many African-Americans flocked to Jacksonville after the war because of opportunity that wasn't available in places like NBF's neck of the woods. 

The nonsense I spoke of comes from Lakelander, Dare, and the crazy delusional smearcat lady. Nothing I post will convince them that what they propose as fact is either dead wrong or theory.

You've posted nothing more than pure opinion and have completely ignored or dismissed anything that doesn't fit your perspective for more than 30 pages now. You've attempted to throw out sources you've introduced to the conversation once they are used to prove the opposite of your opinion. You've equated the freeing of slaves as letting prisoners loose and a reason for why white supremacy groups led by people like NBF were needed. Now you're calling people names in some strange effort to make a self admitted white supremacist (according to a source you introduced) an honorable person to a community where half the population viewed (and still does) him as a terrorist. 

However, you can't change history by erasing the blood on NBF's hands, ignoring racially motivated acts by Jax officials in 1959, and making links between NBF and Jax where they don't exist. Thus, most of the +20k reading this can see right through all of your smoke and mirrors.

In short, your position is structurally as sound as jello.  In fact, you've probably converted a few people who had no dog in the fight into the name change camp. Congrats.

I knew after I posted the BEST SOURCE for winning this discussion that they would try to turn and spin. They certainly do struggle when the facts presented do not fit their theory.

I'm getting ready to spend some time with family out of town but there's one fact you can't spin or ignore. The process of changing the name is in the works. No amount of lies to cover up NBF's past is going to change that.

[kbhanson3]

Looks to me like the only spin in this thread is coming from you, sgarey.  You have offered nothing persuasive - just a "change is bad, don't let the minorities impose their will on us" argument.  As if there is an "us" and a "them" in the issue.  But then that's a common thread in your posts.  Us (whites, southerners) and Them (blacks, yankees).  At this point in time it seems to me that there is just "us" - Jaxons.  Through the grace of God, the ingenuity of the Wright brothers, and the construction of the interstate system, quite a few non-southerners have made their way to our little patch of paradise and now call it home.  So, much like the great American melting pot of immigrants in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the south (and especially Florida) is now a diverse mix of people from all of this country and others.  There's no going back.  Regional identities are fading away and we are becoming a more homogeneous America.  You can try to stand in the path of progress and hold on to the distant past, but you will just get run over. 

Your arguments strike me as intolerant and best and racist at worst.  Lump me in with thelakelander, stephendare and CheshireCat.

Changing the name is good for Jacksonville. It is one more step away from racism.

[Sgarey123]

I do not see how digging into the chaos that persisted historically after the Civil war is "Racist."  I think we are starting the drift to Al Sharpton politics. Its really silly.

I have not "attempted to throw out sources I introduced."  You just want to make it out that way. Every source I have provided (your welcome BTW) is good.  I would say that some of the sources that have been provided for renaming are the ones that take quite a bit of liberty when it comes to telling the story of history. They have been refuted.

I did not equate the slaves being freed to letting out prisoners. I equated the chaos that ensued after the war to a general displacement of a lot of people  (ex-slaves, ex-soldiers, carpet baggers, etc.) You immediately read into this looking for a racial attack because you are against the ropes at this point. 

Calling Forrest a white supremacist is extremely obtuse. If Forrest was one then so was pretty much everyone in history.  The man sought peace and harmony after the war.  He spoke about it in his testimony, in speeches, everywhere. BUT THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU!  He also hired Black Americans. He helped rebuild a country and a culture that was torn apart. All you want to say is he was in some club that you know very little about and that he visited only TWO times. 

The largest part of this argument is that regardless of ALL THE WORK I have done to refute your theoretical reasons for renaming that the real reason we should not rename this school is that it is literally racists to do so. It goes against everything we have been taught by the Civil Rights movement. IT IS ONE GROUP FEEDING OFF ANOTHER.  It is wrong.

All your points have been invalidated. He was not the founder of the KKK. There is not even a membership in the club.  There is no proof of a middle finger theory. He was NOT a War criminal. There is no proof he was even a racist in fact he was very progressive for his time.  Finally there is certainly no proof whatsoever that Jacksonville is not part of the south.  You guys should eat your hat because it has been handed to you. Need salt? Whats the next topic...CASE CLOSED.

Finally I would suggest that the renamers change tactics. Go back to being true historians. Return to what makes you dignified and respected. Treat all history equally.  It is admirable to promote Black history but if you only support one kind over another then that starts to look very racist.  I personally enjoy all types of cultural history and currently support them all. 

People of all kinds deserve to be represented in the school names that are currently present. That includes whoever relates to Forrest.

He has been tried here and he is not guilty. He was more strongly tried several times for all the things you have come after him for and he was not convicted.  Others were convicted. 

Its time to man up and put aside "your personal desires" and respect people who may not be like you. That is the high road. It is the right thing to do and the path to unity and peace. Forrest did that for you. Its the least you can do for him.

[BridgeTroll]

There seems to be plenty of spin from both sides.  Most of the spin is simply to make ones case... facts are presented... but not really in context, labels are affixed, names are called.  What this discussion has shown me... is that this particular period of US history is a bit... murky.

There are plenty here who ascribe to the "history is written by the victors" theory and have used that argument in other discussions here.  What is extremely clear... is the period shortly after the war was a chaotic and dangerous period... for everyone... the southern white "losers" of the war, the recently freed black slaves, the women and children left without fathers, the union soldiers trying to keep order, even the carpetbaggers.  The economy was destroyed by the war... and the South's main source of labor was now free and demanding a wage for work... or gone.

Small towns, counties formed local militias... in the testimony we see the names of a few of them... Ku Klux, Pale faces, Knights of the White Camilia... I imagine there were scores of such organizations.  As a military hero and southern leader and former general... Forrest would at least have knowledge of these groups, likely have contact with them, and quite possibly been a member.  If history is written by the victors then the victors seemed to have done there best to attempt to discredit Forrest.  He was likely deemed a threat by the victors.  Was he the leader of the KKK?  I'm not sure there is enough proof... but for the sake of this discussion (renaming a school)... I'm not sure it matters very much.

We know he WAS a slave holder.  We know he bought and sold humans before the war.  Do these actions disqualify Forrest for school naming?  It certainly does not with regards to Washington and Jefferson.  Another instance of "the victors writing the history"?

Fort Pillow?  Another instance of the victor writing the history.  There is no doubt about the carnage that occurred... this was a brutal war... the fort refused surrender terms... the fort was attacked and the soldiers within were slaughtered.  The North had plenty opportunity to arrest, try, and hang Forrest after the war... yet... did not.

I found this NY Times obituary for Forrest...   http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0713.html

My conclusions... I lack the perspective that Lakelander and others have.  For me... there is enough evidence for me to assume Forrest had some alliance with either the KKK or similar type groups.  There is evidence of massacre at Fort Pillow... but I do not give much weight to this episode.  So this leaves me with what I do know... and what I am sure of.  Forrest was a slave owner and trader.  He was clearly a racist simply using his slave trading as an example.  His actions and words late in life indicate a change in these attitudes.  He was viewed with suspicion by northern authorities immediately following the war.

While I might understand the possible "angst" of NBF HS grads at the possibility of a name change... in the big scheme of things it really should not be a big deal to them.  They are still "NB Forrest Grads"... it says so on your diploma.  The name is an issue for half of our population... it is time for it to go.  Let the new student body decide on a name and mascot etc and lets move on.

[thelakelander]

^In addition, I think it's a stretch for any of us to believe that all NBF students and grads feel the same way.  Judging from the links posted in this thread, there are NBF students and grads on both sides of the table as well.