Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[rbirds]

I see several responses from sgeary123 but beyond accusations and recriminations I see no substantial arguments demonstrating his position. Just posting a link is not an argument. Put some words on the page, citing sources and why the reader should take the sources as authoritative. I also see no counter argument to the earlier post with legitimate historians and others with personal knowledge of that historical period.

All I see are unproven claims. All smoke and foam.

[kbhanson3]

....and let's not attempt to try and define true southern heritage as a four year war that was 150 years ago.  Our history is much more in depth and diverse. Jax deserves better.

Well said. What is the real motivation for the dogged efforts to hold on to and honor the confederacy 150 years later?  Is it thinly veiled opposition to the changes brought about by civil rights legislation?  Hard to believe anyone is still hoping for secession and formation of a country separate from the USA in 2013.

[kbhanson3]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday.

Perhaps we should reinstitute separate drinking fountains and restrooms lest we forget how "coloreds" were treated in the pre-civil rights era.  Just so no one forgets....

[ronchamblin]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday.

Perhaps we should reinstitute separate drinking fountains and restrooms lest we forget how "coloreds" were treated in the pre-civil rights era.  Just so no one forgets....

I understand what you say.  However, I refer to the idea of education, lest we forget, by the absence of reminders of the absurd actions of racist types, what can continue in the way of prejudicial and racist thinking in some minds.  You refer of course to initiating the actual behaviors and systems which activate and engage in the abuses of segregation, thus returning to conditions of the past. 

But there are advantages to what many are saying too, and I am drifting to this opinion.... which is to forget the education or reminder effort, and to simply let time erase all facets and reminders of racism and its abuses .... to remover further and completely all aspects related.  Perhaps these actions of total removal of everything related, will speed the journey to full equality and fairness in all respects.  I can live with that. 

[kbhanson3]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday.

Perhaps we should reinstitute separate drinking fountains and restrooms lest we forget how "coloreds" were treated in the pre-civil rights era.  Just so no one forgets....

I understand what you say.  However, I refer to the idea of education, lest we forget, by the absence of reminders of the absurd actions of racist types, what can continue in the way of prejudicial and racist thinking in some minds.  You refer of course to initiating the actual behaviors and systems which activate and engage in the abuses of segregation, thus returning to conditions of the past. 

But there are advantages to what many are saying too, and I am drifting to this opinion.... which is to forget the education or reminder effort, and to simply let time erase all facets and reminders of racism and its abuses .... to remover further and completely all aspects related.  Perhaps these actions of total removal of everything related, will speed the journey to full equality and fairness in all respects.  I can live with that.

My mistake with poor wording.  I was thinking not of forcing anyone to use separate facilities.  Just to have them in place as visible reminders.  Obviously, I was using an extreme/absurd example in an attempt to expose what I view as flawed logic.

[thelakelander]

Want a reminder? Add an exhibit in a history museum and call it a day.

[Sgarey123]

The reason those 4 years were so pivotal should be obvious to everyone. To act like they didnt define everything else moving forward is outright idiocy.

750, 000 people died! That would equate to 2 million today. This touched every house hold. It was hell. 

it was the first war of the modern era. They had casualies of 25000 sometimes in one battle!

Compare the numbers to pearl harbor, 9/11 and it really puts things into perspective. Remember only 5000 people hanged over a few decades?

what you all are supporting is the removal of a piece of this history.  Its funny because its obvious you all need to learn about it.

Finally If you post sources and I ignore then realize there is a reason. You ignored my source. Furthermore my source explained what was wrong with yours. There are some bold claims in the link I posted.

You must realize thar holding off several all at once (some with less than civil tactics) is not easy.

[kbhanson3]

The reason those 4 years were so pivotal should be obvious to everyone. To act like they didnt define everything else moving forward is outright idiocy.

I submit to you that WWII defined the lives of everyone posting on this thread far more than the Civil War. Had we lost that war, who is to say what civil liberties any of us would enjoy? Yet we have no schools here that I'm aware of named after FDR, Eisenhower, Truman or MacArthur.

[kbhanson3]

Yes, I would have thought it obvious too until I found this thread....

[Tacachale]

The reason those 4 years were so pivotal should be obvious to everyone. To act like they didnt define everything else moving forward is outright idiocy.

I submit to you that WWII defined the lives of everyone posting on this thread far more than the Civil War. Had we lost that war, who is to say what civil liberties any of us would enjoy? Yet we have no schools here that I'm aware of named after FDR, Eisenhower, Truman or MacArthur.

We do have Joseph Stillwell Middle School. However, like most folks with schools named after them in Duval County, he was a local (born in Palatka). That's one of the key differences, and of course he doesn't have the black marks on his name that Forrest does.

[Ocklawaha]

Bob, I return again to the reality, which is that a variety of facts, including spin on both sides of this argument were made to the school board and those who defend keeping the name of Forrest on the school did not persuade the school board to embrace their version of the facts.

The process to change the name is underway.  As to the "witch hunt" comment, you know that is just silly.  There was and is no witch hunt.  All this was ever about is changing the name of a school which embraces a man of an arguably dubious background on a school in a city that has absolutely no connection to the man.  No one is attacking the entirety of our southern heritage so let's not make the discussion about that.  I love my heritage and does everyone else here.  The fact that we differ in views does not lessen our love of the south.  You know that. 

I rather considered myself, Sgarey123 and General Forrest, to be the witches in this hunt. i'm pretty certain that once the name is gone, we'll need to exorcise the demons in us too, I mean after all 'El Duce' is pretty hefty company. LOL

When the last southern monument falls to this inane 'final solution,' I will support using the names of famous men from WWII, 'Admiral Halsey,' would be nice and 'Vinegar Joe,' is a good start. The only catch I see being that in about another 90 years, when the current crop of revisionists have spawned their fry, they will have convinced the world that Pearl Harbor sailed out and snuck up on the Japanese Imperial fleet... In fact that revision is already in the pipeline.

[thelakelander]

Ock, what's your take on rbird's posts of eye witness accounts of Forrest?  You guys seem to be ignoring them rather than directly responding.

[Ocklawaha]

I will post something on these later today as I hadn't seen them; only being in this conversation for a couple of short days en total.

Headed up to the doc again as they are working me up for surgery #1 of what is likely 4, starting Jan 3. Seems like I have no time anymore but I will go back and respond.

[thelakelander]

Ok. Good luck with the doc.

[Sgarey123]

Ww2 was a big deal but it was not on our soil. You had Americans killing Americans. Brothers killing brothers. Mussolini was not American. The South was allowed to keep its heros to heal the wounds and create a successful surrender.

The comparison is juvenile and does not fit whatsoever.