Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[kbhanson3]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

[Cheshire Cat]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

The answer is yes, of course it can and to some level that has already begun. 

[thelakelander]

It has and I believe the discussion in this thread is helping educate the "stakeholders" and ultimate decision makers.

[rbirds]

What I notice with online posters like sgarey123 is the reflexive imperviousness to any argument.  Cite a dozen authorities, throw in a letter from a charter member of the KKK, cite contemporary witnesses to the violent and racist behavior of the organization during the period Forrest led it and it all just bounces off the fortress wall erected to segregate the poster from any real argument.

I note sgarey123 alludes to evidence but describes none of it. I see no description of the alleged authorities or discussion of their qualifications.  Just a claim that the authorities indeed question how mainstream history has treated Forrest.

I did not go to the trouble of finding an online source for Forrest's own testimony before Congressional panels after the war as he defended himself against accusations of war crimes and where he describes himself as leader of the KKK. But I can see adding such authentic first-person accounts would have made no difference.

This discussion reminds of interviews with Holocaust deniers and those who argue the Civil War was NOT fought over slavery, the mountains of contrary evidence notwithstanding.

[Cheshire Cat]

What I notice with online posters like sgarey123 is the reflexive imperviousness to any argument.  Cite a dozen authorities, throw in a letter from a charter member of the KKK, cite contemporary witnesses to the violent and racist behavior of the organization during the period Forrest led it and it all just bounces off the fortress wall erected to segregate the poster from any real argument.

I note sgarey123 alludes to evidence but describes none of it. I see no description of the alleged authorities or discussion of their qualifications.  Just a claim that the authorities indeed question how mainstream history has treated Forrest.

I did not go to the trouble of finding an online source for Forrest's own testimony before Congressional panels after the war as he defended himself against accusations of war crimes and where he describes himself as leader of the KKK. But I can see adding such authentic first-person accounts would have made no difference.

This discussion reminds of interviews with Holocaust deniers and those who argue the Civil War was NOT fought over slavery, the mountains of contrary evidence notwithstanding.

Great observations.  I think most who have read this thread have developed the same view. Spot on.

[ronchamblin]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday. 

[thelakelander]

The way I see it, we didn't have to move the Capitol of the country to Richmond or create a Southern annex to remember that it once served as the Capitol of the Confederacy during a 4-year war, 150 years ago. 

I also don't see the need to preserve the name as a reminder of the fight for Civil Rights locally.  Reminders are all around us.  Our city's development pattern has been shaped by the Jim Crow era and sentiment coming from it.  Neighborhoods like LaVilla, Sugar Hill and Brooklyn are smoldering shells of their former selves due to a lack of respect for African American history during the popular days of urban renewal. We have monuments for events like Ax Handle Saturday. Florida Avenue is still a shell of itself after the race riots of 1969. The path of our older highways such as I-95 and MLK Parkway were selected to serve as racial barriers.  The Northside's landscape still looks malnourished compared to other areas of town that have and continue to be invested in at a greater level.  All of these things and more are great talking points for the subject of prejudice, racism and the horrors resulting from it.

[ronchamblin]

Absolutely, there are plenty of reminders.  Time.... lots of time, will allow.... finally, ideal conditions to emerge... conditions we all would love to see.   

[Ocklawaha]

Ron, did you actually read the entirety of this thread before posting?  My guess is that you have not because as hard as it will be for you to move beyond the personal sniping that you and Stephen often engage in, it has not been Stephen in this thread who has been at the core of faux cleverness, profanity or lack of understanding of the issue or history in this matter.  That honor goes to another who has been undone and finished by facts on this thread over and over again to the point of being rendered nothing more that an oddity of humanity. A person of foul mouth living in a world of their own resplendent denial, lies, bigotry, fanaticism and about every other low level human response one can name.  A person who has tried without success to impugn the integrity of every poster on the forum who would not fall into his bizarre need to worship a man of very questionable integrity.  A person who has morphed a discussion about a name on a high school into a self serving discussion about all of southern history and the civil war.  Does no one realize that this discussion is nothing more than a "hard on" for this poster?  Yes I said it because that is what this has now become.  Intelligent people being drawn into the madness of one mans personal agenda to further aggrandize an already grossly inflated perception of his own cleverness and ego.  He doesn't care what anyone else says or about the truth.  This is all a head game for him and so far, as long as he continues to draw people into it, he is winning that game.  He lost the argument a long time ago and this now is simply a game that to my view is not worth engaging in and by doing so losing the focus of the issue which began this thread.  Renaming one high school in one city that had nothing to do with it's namesake.   

Diane you are a piece of work.  You are delusional.  This description fits you perfectly. I can not count how many times you all have tried to pin a personality to this situation so you can then smear and pile upon them. I invite anyone to go back and look at the converstation. It is rather clear who has good intentions and who does not. 

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

Nothing new has been brought forth to change any of the above.

The fight may seem like it is over but the board could still change their mind and so could Vitti.  They just need to hear from regular people like me about how this is the wrong thing to do.  Everyone out there is scared to talk about this issue. They do not want to be labeled by people like you.

I will say this, if you went to school at NBF then you should write a letter to every school board member, Vitti, and your alumni board.  It is not too late and if you are a graduate they can not come after you and paint you out like some sort of extremist because you like your school name.

Ron is not the only one to think that the name is a great history lesson.  Here is a column by Mark Woods that says the same thing:  http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-10-05/mark-woods-study-history-those-forrest-debate-say

I have been saying this too. It is the right thing to do.

There is still hope. The Board and Vitti could change.

Don't confuse them with facts Sgarey123, they have created a story from whole cloth and held court resulting in conviction on all counts. The name will be senselessly changed as another tiny part of a national campaign to erase every vestige of the Confederacy from our collective memory. Once the deed is done there will be mob-think back slapping about what great and noble, caring people they all are. Its not going to end here, the statue in Hemming Park will have to go, Lee, Jackson, Davis, Stuart et al are history. The Confederate flag will not be permitted at Olustee, Camp Milton, Yellow Bluff, St. Johns Bluff, Horse Landing etc. There is already a move afoot to boot the Confederate reenactors out of local parades in Brunswick.

When they are 'done' crime will have ceased, no one will feel hate, endless kisses all around but some will still be empty. You see Christian Churches have crosses, and crosses remind us of the Klan, which remind us of Forrest, which reminds us of hate. In my lifetime I've seen Christian prayer eliminated from school, Bibles gone, now free assembly of Christian groups is under assault, how long do you think it will be before we padlock the last one? Then we'll be truly enlightened!

Lastly several people will just on here and tell me I've gone over the edge, how irresponsible, how unfeeling, how could I?

This is a witch hunt and guess who the witches are?

[thelakelander]

LOL, Ock. Seriously, what are the facts? I'm confused.

Are you claiming that the opening of an all-white school (five years after Brown vs. Board of Education) and the overriding of the name selected by the students in favor of something by the Daughters of the Confederacy is false?

If not, why would we be overriding the community on name selection and opening an all-white school five years after the supreme court declared this unconstitutional?

If so, provide a counter argument based on more than opinion to suggest that these acts did not happen. 

Also, I'd love to get your perspective on rbird's post earlier today:

Sgarey123 suggests Forrest was not a member of the KKK and was not a racist.

Well, what do historians say about Forrest? A few examples followed by an interview with a former slave who witnessed KKK violence during the brief time Forrest led this organization.  This is the real person for whom his defenders stand up in this discussion:

1) Jack Hurst, "Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography". Random House, 1993. 

"Forrest is more remembered for an even greater mistake [the author is referring to the Ft. Pillow massacre]: his brief leadership in galvanizing the terror of the Ku Klux Klan." (p. 384)

"Forrest...had plainly tired [by 1875] of the race struggle, as well as of his own reputation as Fort Pillow's Butcher and the Klan's grand wizard. Living in a city whose only barbers were blacks, he had made it a postbellum practice never to patronize the same one twice in succession, lest a plot be hatched to slit his throat." (p. 366)

2) Owen J. Dwyer, "Symbolic Accretion and Commemoration", in the journal "Social & Cultural Geography" (2006) , pp. 419-435.

"Controversy has erupted in Selma, Alabama, over recent efforts to commemorate the career of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate cavalry officer and founding member of the original Ku Klux Klan. More generally, the controversy in Selma is emblematic of an enduring regional pattern in which contests over the future are couched in terms of the past. Relative to other media, monuments appear to be trustworthy and lasting. Despite this appearance of historical consensus and stability, the city's public spaces are the product of and conduit for ongoing politics."

3) David M. Chalmers, "Hooded Americanism: The First Century of the Ku Klux Klan, 1865-1965". Doubleday, 1965.

"According to Forrest, the Klan had been a law-and-order organization to restore authority to insecure and fearful Southern whites. The 'organization was got up to protect the weak, with no political intention at all." (p. 21).

4) Laura Martin Rose, "The Ku Klux Klan: or Invisible Empire". L. Graham Co. 1914. (a KKK sympathizer is the author of this book)

She includes a letter written to her by one of the last surviving charter members of the Ku Klux Klan. She quotes from the letter, dated October 25, 1908:

"The younger generation will never fully realize the risk we ran, and the sacrifices we made to free our beloved Southland from the hated rule of the 'Carpetbagger,' the worse negro and the home Yankee...After the order grew to large numbers, we found it was necessary to have someone of large experience to command. We chose General N.B. Forrest, who had joined our number. He was made a member and took the oath in the Room No. 10 of the Maxwell House at Nashvile, Tennessee, in the fall of 1866, nearly a year after we organized at Pulaski." (p. 22)

"The superstition of the negro is well known, and through this element in his makeup, the ku Klux Klan gained control. They made the negroes believe that they were the ghosts of their dead masters, and under the conviction that if they did wrong, spirits from the other world would visit them; the negroes became very quiet and subdued." (p. 19)

5) Court Carney, "The Contested Image of Nathan Bedford Forrest," in the "Journal of Southern History," (2001).

"A notorious slave trader and an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan, Nathan Bedford Forrest became an obvious target for African American anger and contempt." (p. 601).

"Although Forrest and others later insisted that the Klan functioned only as a political organization, racial terrorism became the hallmark of Klan activities. Forrest, however, lost interest in the Klan once it outgrew his immediate authority." (p. 603)

As far as KKK activities during the time Forrest was its leader, here is an interview of a former slave. The transcript is in the WPA Slave Narrative Project, North Carolina Narratives, Volume 11, Part 2, Federal Writer's Project, United States Work Projects Administration (USWPA); Manuscript Division, Library of Congress:


"I [Ben Johnson, born into slavery in 1848 and interviewed in 1933] was born in Orange County [North Carolina] and I belong to Mr. Glibert Gregg near Hillsboro. I don't know nothin' 'bout my mammy and daddy, but I had a brother Jim who was sold to dress young misses fer her weddin'. The tree is still standing where I set under an' watch them sell Jim. I set dar an' I cry an' cry, especially when they puts the chains on him an' carries him off, an' I ain't never felt so lonesome in my whole life. I ain't never hear from Jim since an' I wonder now sometimes if'en he's still living.

I knows that the master was good to us an' he fed an' clothed us good. We had our own garden an' we was gitten' long all right.

I seed a whole heap of Yankees when they comed to Hillsboro an' most of them ain't got no respect for God, man, nor the devil. I can't remember so much about them though cause we lives in town... an' we has a gyard.

The most that I can tell you 'bout is the Klu Klux. I never will forget when they hung Cy Guy. They hung him for a scandalous insult to a white woman an' they comed after him a hundred strong.

They tries him there in the woods, an' they scratches Cy's arm to get some blood, an' with that blood they writes that he shall hang 'tween the heavens and the earth till he is dead, dead, dead, and that any n***** what takes down the body shall be hanged too.

Well sir, the next morning there he hung, right over the road an' the sentence hanging over his head. Nobody would bother with that body for four days an' there it hung, swinging in the wind, but the fourth day the sheriff comes an' takes it down.

There was Ed an' Cindy, who before the war belonged to Mr Lynch an' after the war he told them to move. He gives them a month and they ain't gone, so the Ku Kluxes gets them.

It was on a cold night when they came and dragged the n*****s out of bed. They carried them down in the woods an' whup them, then they throes them in the pond, their bodies breakin' the ice. Ed comes out an' come to our house, but Cindy ain't been seen since.

Sam Allen in Caswell County was told to move an' after a month the hundred Ku Klux came a-totin' his casket an' they tells him that his time has come an' if he wants to tell his wife goodbye an' say his prayers; hurry up.

They set the coffin on two chairs an' Sam kisses his old woman who's a-crying, then he kneels down beside his bed with his head on the pillar an' his arms thrown out in front of him.

He sits there for a minute an' when he rose he had a long knife in his hand. Before he could be grabbed, he done kill two of the Klu Kluxes with the knife, an' he done gone out of the door. They ain't catch him neither, and the next night when they came back, determined to get him, they shot another n***** by accident.

Bob Boylan falls in love with another woman, so he burns his wife an' four youngsters up in their house.

The Ku Kluxes gets him, of course, an' they hangs him high on the old red oak on the Hillsboro Road, After they hanged him, his lawyer says to us boys: 'Bury him good, boys, just as good as you'd bury me if I was daid'

I shook hands with Bob before they hanged him an' I helped bury him too an' we bury him nice an' we all hopes that he done gone to glory."

__________________________________________

Truly a great person. We should name more stuff after him.

[Sgarey123]

What I notice with online posters like sgarey123 is the reflexive imperviousness to any argument.  Cite a dozen authorities, throw in a letter from a charter member of the KKK, cite contemporary witnesses to the violent and racist behavior of the organization during the period Forrest led it and it all just bounces off the fortress wall erected to segregate the poster from any real argument.

I note sgarey123 alludes to evidence but describes none of it. I see no description of the alleged authorities or discussion of their qualifications.  Just a claim that the authorities indeed question how mainstream history has treated Forrest.

I did not go to the trouble of finding an online source for Forrest's own testimony before Congressional panels after the war as he defended himself against accusations of war crimes and where he describes himself as leader of the KKK. But I can see adding such authentic first-person accounts would have made no difference.

This discussion reminds of interviews with Holocaust deniers and those who argue the Civil War was NOT fought over slavery, the mountains of contrary evidence notwithstanding.

Alright Rbirds, I did not ignore those sources. The fact was I brought a source to discuss and ended up getting several questionable sources thrown back at me.  I did not dismiss the other sources. I merely said they were debatable. Again being initiated into a club you are supposed to have founded is interesting. Don't you think?  How many of these sources have been contradictory. I would say most of them. I even alluded to the link I posted saying that it explains the shroud of information out there.  Go dig up his testimony! I would love to read that.

The fact is you guys do not like my contentions because I simply have a different way of looking at this. It would be impossible for this good old boy MJ club to be wrong.  I disagreed with you all and you immediately tried to find out who I was and where I lived so you could trash me personally instead of discuss the issues. It has continued to happen OVER AND OVER.  You guys then proceeded to post pages and pages of KKK history on the board that had nothing to do with Forrest and was in a different part of history.  Diane "master smearer" tried to claim I was two different people and grilled me to see if she could figure it out. Shameful. This is why you guys get so little input from the other side by the way. They all heard about the FBC guy who got outed on this site. This place is a mouse trap. 

You guys are bitter animals. You have sided with the slaughter of a historical figure. They already disgraced his park...his grave! Now we are going to justify that action by renaming a school? With a entirely new school board? With a new Superintendent? Do you not see how fishy that all sounds?

You guys keep acting like I am the extreme one. But as I said earlier, you can take these left wing ideals, wipe regional culture away, and then show intolerance of opposition....what do you get? Fascism.  Down the road I could see you guys discussing stringing up descendants of Confederates?

You all profess to love Jacksonville. If you did you would leave the old school world around to teach us and focus on building a better new one. You would be able to respect that there is a large group that does not think like you all do. You would be able to discuss the renaming of Forrest high school without losing your cool.

Renaming is probably going to happen. I know this and I disagree with it but I am going to hang in here and get ready for the next school or for the next monument you want to trash...The next bit of history you want to erase.

Nathan Bedford was a warrior. He did his job and has world wide recognition for his tactics and skills. I respect the man and since I have been taught well I can visualize the historical context of the time. I have read his words and I have researched him due to all this and I find him to be worthy of a school name.

You have to understand here. If Nathan Bedford Forrest is not allowed to exist. Then what about the rest of us? Are we going to sit in the back of the buses now? Are we going to be considered second class citizens for who we are?  This guy is one of our heroes and he is being wiped away from this country. It is a matter of time before it reaches the Confederate descendant.  This is the wrong path. This is the wrong message.

[Sgarey123]

Don't confuse them with facts Sgarey123, they have created a story from whole cloth and held court resulting in conviction on all counts. The name will be senselessly changed as another tiny part of a national campaign to erase every vestige of the Confederacy from our collective memory. Once the deed is done there will be mob-think back slapping about what great and noble, caring people they all are. Its not going to end here, the statue in Hemming Park will have to go, Lee, Jackson, Davis, Stuart et al are history. The Confederate flag will not be permitted at Olustee, Camp Milton, Yellow Bluff, St. Johns Bluff, Horse Landing etc. There is already a move afoot to boot the Confederate reenactors out of local parades in Brunswick.

When they are 'done' crime will have ceased, no one will feel hate, endless kisses all around but some will still be empty. You see Christian Churches have crosses, and crosses remind us of the Klan, which remind us of Forrest, which reminds us of hate. In my lifetime I've seen Christian prayer eliminated from school, Bibles gone, now free assembly of Christian groups is under assault, how long do you think it will be before we padlock the last one? Then we'll be truly enlightened!

Lastly several people will just on here and tell me I've gone over the edge, how irresponsible, how unfeeling, how could I?

This is a witch hunt and guess who the witches are?

Well said sir. I guess the second Civil Rights movement is about to begin.

[Cheshire Cat]

Bob, I return again to the reality, which is that a variety of facts, including spin on both sides of this argument were made to the school board and those who defend keeping the name of Forrest on the school did not persuade the school board to embrace their version of the facts.

The process to change the name is underway.  As to the "witch hunt" comment, you know that is just silly.  There was and is no witch hunt.  All this was ever about is changing the name of a school which embraces a man of an arguably dubious background on a school in a city that has absolutely no connection to the man.  No one is attacking the entirety of our southern heritage so let's not make the discussion about that.  I love my heritage and does everyone else here.  The fact that we differ in views does not lessen our love of the south.  You know that.   

[thelakelander]

....and let's not attempt to try and define true southern heritage as a four year war that was 150 years ago.  Our history is much more in depth and diverse. Jax deserves better.

[Cheshire Cat]

....and let's not attempt to try and define true southern heritage as a four year war that was 150 years ago.  Our history is much more in depth and diverse. Jax deserves better.

Completely agree Ennis.