Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[ben says]

People who are arguing for this name to be kept don't realize how dumb they look

[ronchamblin]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past. 

[rbirds]

Sgarey123 suggests Forrest was not a member of the KKK and was not a racist.

Well, what do historians say about Forrest? A few examples followed by an interview with a former slave who witnessed KKK violence during the brief time Forrest led this organization.  This is the real person for whom his defenders stand up in this discussion:

1) Jack Hurst, "Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography". Random House, 1993. 

"Forrest is more remembered for an even greater mistake [the author is referring to the Ft. Pillow massacre]: his brief leadership in galvanizing the terror of the Ku Klux Klan." (p. 384)

"Forrest...had plainly tired [by 1875] of the race struggle, as well as of his own reputation as Fort Pillow's Butcher and the Klan's grand wizard. Living in a city whose only barbers were blacks, he had made it a postbellum practice never to patronize the same one twice in succession, lest a plot be hatched to slit his throat." (p. 366)

2) Owen J. Dwyer, "Symbolic Accretion and Commemoration", in the journal "Social & Cultural Geography" (2006) , pp. 419-435.

"Controversy has erupted in Selma, Alabama, over recent efforts to commemorate the career of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate cavalry officer and founding member of the original Ku Klux Klan. More generally, the controversy in Selma is emblematic of an enduring regional pattern in which contests over the future are couched in terms of the past. Relative to other media, monuments appear to be trustworthy and lasting. Despite this appearance of historical consensus and stability, the city's public spaces are the product of and conduit for ongoing politics."

3) David M. Chalmers, "Hooded Americanism: The First Century of the Ku Klux Klan, 1865-1965". Doubleday, 1965.

"According to Forrest, the Klan had been a law-and-order organization to restore authority to insecure and fearful Southern whites. The 'organization was got up to protect the weak, with no political intention at all." (p. 21).

4) Laura Martin Rose, "The Ku Klux Klan: or Invisible Empire". L. Graham Co. 1914. (a KKK sympathizer is the author of this book)

She includes a letter written to her by one of the last surviving charter members of the Ku Klux Klan. She quotes from the letter, dated October 25, 1908:

"The younger generation will never fully realize the risk we ran, and the sacrifices we made to free our beloved Southland from the hated rule of the 'Carpetbagger,' the worse negro and the home Yankee...After the order grew to large numbers, we found it was necessary to have someone of large experience to command. We chose General N.B. Forrest, who had joined our number. He was made a member and took the oath in the Room No. 10 of the Maxwell House at Nashvile, Tennessee, in the fall of 1866, nearly a year after we organized at Pulaski." (p. 22)

"The superstition of the negro is well known, and through this element in his makeup, the ku Klux Klan gained control. They made the negroes believe that they were the ghosts of their dead masters, and under the conviction that if they did wrong, spirits from the other world would visit them; the negroes became very quiet and subdued." (p. 19)

5) Court Carney, "The Contested Image of Nathan Bedford Forrest," in the "Journal of Southern History," (2001).

"A notorious slave trader and an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan, Nathan Bedford Forrest became an obvious target for African American anger and contempt." (p. 601).

"Although Forrest and others later insisted that the Klan functioned only as a political organization, racial terrorism became the hallmark of Klan activities. Forrest, however, lost interest in the Klan once it outgrew his immediate authority." (p. 603)

As far as KKK activities during the time Forrest was its leader, here is an interview of a former slave. The transcript is in the WPA Slave Narrative Project, North Carolina Narratives, Volume 11, Part 2, Federal Writer's Project, United States Work Projects Administration (USWPA); Manuscript Division, Library of Congress:


"I [Ben Johnson, born into slavery in 1848 and interviewed in 1933] was born in Orange County [North Carolina] and I belong to Mr. Glibert Gregg near Hillsboro. I don't know nothin' 'bout my mammy and daddy, but I had a brother Jim who was sold to dress young misses fer her weddin'. The tree is still standing where I set under an' watch them sell Jim. I set dar an' I cry an' cry, especially when they puts the chains on him an' carries him off, an' I ain't never felt so lonesome in my whole life. I ain't never hear from Jim since an' I wonder now sometimes if'en he's still living.

I knows that the master was good to us an' he fed an' clothed us good. We had our own garden an' we was gitten' long all right.

I seed a whole heap of Yankees when they comed to Hillsboro an' most of them ain't got no respect for God, man, nor the devil. I can't remember so much about them though cause we lives in town... an' we has a gyard.

The most that I can tell you 'bout is the Klu Klux. I never will forget when they hung Cy Guy. They hung him for a scandalous insult to a white woman an' they comed after him a hundred strong.

They tries him there in the woods, an' they scratches Cy's arm to get some blood, an' with that blood they writes that he shall hang 'tween the heavens and the earth till he is dead, dead, dead, and that any n***** what takes down the body shall be hanged too.

Well sir, the next morning there he hung, right over the road an' the sentence hanging over his head. Nobody would bother with that body for four days an' there it hung, swinging in the wind, but the fourth day the sheriff comes an' takes it down.

There was Ed an' Cindy, who before the war belonged to Mr Lynch an' after the war he told them to move. He gives them a month and they ain't gone, so the Ku Kluxes gets them.

It was on a cold night when they came and dragged the n*****s out of bed. They carried them down in the woods an' whup them, then they throes them in the pond, their bodies breakin' the ice. Ed comes out an' come to our house, but Cindy ain't been seen since.

Sam Allen in Caswell County was told to move an' after a month the hundred Ku Klux came a-totin' his casket an' they tells him that his time has come an' if he wants to tell his wife goodbye an' say his prayers; hurry up.

They set the coffin on two chairs an' Sam kisses his old woman who's a-crying, then he kneels down beside his bed with his head on the pillar an' his arms thrown out in front of him.

He sits there for a minute an' when he rose he had a long knife in his hand. Before he could be grabbed, he done kill two of the Klu Kluxes with the knife, an' he done gone out of the door. They ain't catch him neither, and the next night when they came back, determined to get him, they shot another n***** by accident.

Bob Boylan falls in love with another woman, so he burns his wife an' four youngsters up in their house.

The Ku Kluxes gets him, of course, an' they hangs him high on the old red oak on the Hillsboro Road, After they hanged him, his lawyer says to us boys: 'Bury him good, boys, just as good as you'd bury me if I was daid'

I shook hands with Bob before they hanged him an' I helped bury him too an' we bury him nice an' we all hopes that he done gone to glory."

__________________________________________

Truly a great person. We should name more stuff after him.

[rbirds]

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past. 

Of course, Ron's observation underlies the NBF renaming issue, the discussion of Forrest being just a proxy for the real issues of education and opportunity.

[Sgarey123]

I am saying that his affiliation is questionable.  There was a lot of smear history going on and a lot of cover up to.
If you read the link I posted they explain this fact very well. Just because you repeat a lie over and over it does not make it true. It was repeated for years.

Here it is again:  http://youwereliedtoabout.com/nbf.htm   

I read that the names of the founders of that organization are known. Forrest is not among them. I read somewhere else that the robe of the first "grand wizard" is on display in some museum.  The owner of the robe is well known and it is not Nathan Bedford Forrest.  Apparently they have no quotes from Forrest claiming membership? I was surprised to learn this.

I hesitated to go down this route but it is the source of the issue right? I do not know a lot about this group other then what I have read in folio and seen in movies (I didn't even read what Dare posted).  I know that what I have read is fairly subjective information. However I would never defend the Klan.

I grew up being taught to hate the KKK and all other extremist groups. I think most people were. Some take that hatred to the extremes in a McCarthyism manner.  That is what changing the name of the school is...another form of McCarthyism. Seeing as his membership is questionable one would think that this reason should be removed from the table.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ron Chamblin. I think his suggested approach is healthier.  History teaches us things. This is a teachable icon. We should use it for everything it is worth. I know that I have learned a lot just from this discourse.  The name of this school is special. This is the truly liberal approach.

Its funny to note that every time I throw a zinger out there Dare posts "yawn." Its like his tell in poker.

Please reconsider changing the name. It is not the right thing to do.

[Sgarey123]

The reason is that I am defending a hero of our culture and region. This is just another smear campaign. Its a modern day lynch mob going after a respected figure in history. It can not be allowed. If it is then all history is on the chopping block. You may as well be burning books!

This move is as extreme as the klan or the black panthers. It is not something our local leaders can endorse and still say they serve our general good.

In every western movie the sheriffs who could not stop the mob were seen as weak. If the school board and Vitti do not stop this then they will be perceived as weak.

The sources you list are questionable. How is it that Forrest was the "founder" of this organization if he was brought in and initiated?! It sounds like this existed already. Or did they?  This is a pretty big mistake.

I have never cared to learn about the Klan. I know they hung 5000 people over a 20 year span. They were just another mob. Lets not be like them. Lets be intelligent and celebrate our history and preserve it as much as possible.  Balance is the key. Renaming the school is extreme.

[ronchamblin]

yawning is usually more polite than actually laughing, Ive been told.

And if you havent ever read about the organization that youve just wasted god knows how many pages making statements about, why on earth are you speaking authoritatively about the membership of that organization?

And other than the direct eyewitnesses and a hundred years of writing on the subject, I guess there just isnt any compelling 'proof' of Forrest's Klan involvement?  Give me a break.

I suppose there is siimilarly no clenching proof of his alleged valor in battle.  So checkmate.

'Keeping the name as a teachable moment".  Balderdash.  Lets rename it Mengeles High then, and make it a medical magnet school.

Some histories really arent worth commemorating,  They are just like farts.  You can capture their essence if you like, but only an ass would reduce a story to fart anecdotes.

As usual, your lack of intelligence, and your failure to perceive a point of issue, forces you to descend to the juvenile, with a little profanity within.  As I've said before, if the conversation exceeds your ability, please don't ruin it with your clumsy attempts at cleverness.  I'm sure it is quite obvious to all that you're not a Voltaire.  Please, spare us your attempts to be one. 

[Cheshire Cat]

yawning is usually more polite than actually laughing, Ive been told.

And if you havent ever read about the organization that youve just wasted god knows how many pages making statements about, why on earth are you speaking authoritatively about the membership of that organization?

And other than the direct eyewitnesses and a hundred years of writing on the subject, I guess there just isnt any compelling 'proof' of Forrest's Klan involvement?  Give me a break.

I suppose there is siimilarly no clenching proof of his alleged valor in battle.  So checkmate.

'Keeping the name as a teachable moment".  Balderdash.  Lets rename it Mengeles High then, and make it a medical magnet school.

Some histories really arent worth commemorating,  They are just like farts.  You can capture their essence if you like, but only an ass would reduce a story to fart anecdotes.

As usual, your lack of intelligence, and your failure to perceive a point of issue, forces you to descend to the juvenile, with a little profanity within.  As I've said before, if the conversation exceeds your ability, please don't ruin it with your clumsy attempts at cleverness.  I'm sure it is quite obvious to all that you're not a Voltaire.  Please, spare us your attempts to be one. 

Ron, did you actually read the entirety of this thread before posting?  My guess is that you have not because as hard as it will be for you to move beyond the personal sniping that you and Stephen often engage in, it has not been Stephen in this thread who has been at the core of faux cleverness, profanity or lack of understanding of the issue or history in this matter.  That honor goes to another who has been undone and finished by facts on this thread over and over again to the point of being rendered nothing more that an oddity of humanity. A person of foul mouth living in a world of their own resplendent denial, lies, bigotry, fanaticism and about every other low level human response one can name.  A person who has tried without success to impugn the integrity of every poster on the forum who would not fall into his bizarre need to worship a man of very questionable integrity.  A person who has morphed a discussion about a name on a high school into a self serving discussion about all of southern history and the civil war.  Does no one realize that this discussion is nothing more than a "hard on" for this poster?  Yes I said it because that is what this has now become.  Intelligent people being drawn into the madness of one mans personal agenda to further aggrandize an already grossly inflated perception of his own cleverness and ego.  He doesn't care what anyone else says or about the truth.  This is all a head game for him and so far, as long as he continues to draw people into it, he is winning that game.  He lost the argument a long time ago and this now is simply a game that to my view is not worth engaging in and by doing so losing the focus of the issue which began this thread.  Renaming one high school in one city that had nothing to do with it's namesake.   

[thelakelander]

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

As insane and bizarre as this thread has become, let's stick to the topic instead of going after each other personally. With that said, changing the name accomplishes the exact same thing and has the extra benefit of being an image booster for Jax to the rest of the country that we may not still be mentally stuck in the 1950s.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

One of the major problems Jax has faced is the ability to overthink ourselves.  Unless someone has been hiding under a rock or simply don't care, the reasoning behind the 1959 opening of this once all-white school and the selection of its name is clear as day. So is our image and economic standing to the rest of the country that has progressed into the 21st century.  All this arguing over the confederacy and attempts to paint this this Forrest S.O.B. as a saint that should be honored in Jax is nothing more than attempts to deflect from the core issue.

None of this suggests that everything is good after this particular point. There's still a lot of work to do with improving several issues in Jacksonville. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we should not right this particular wrong.

[Cheshire Cat]

The bottom line right now is that the necessary arguments about the issue were made to the school board already, days and days ago.  Those arguing to keep the name failed to persuade the school board and they "unanimously" voted to go forward with the process necessary to change the name.  During that process those who are identified as stakeholders in the issue will be given documentation by the school board to fill out and reply to.  There will also be another open meeting where "stakeholders" can make their case one last time.  At that point the Superintendent will make a recommendation as to what the name should be and the final word will go to the school board.  Vitti has already said he supports the name change and the opinion of the school board at this juncture is also quite clear.  All of them without exception voted to move the process forward.  That is where we are at this juncture and no jawing on this forum by those wanting to retain the name on the school is going to make one bit of difference as a the decision has already been made. 

[Sgarey123]

Ron, did you actually read the entirety of this thread before posting?  My guess is that you have not because as hard as it will be for you to move beyond the personal sniping that you and Stephen often engage in, it has not been Stephen in this thread who has been at the core of faux cleverness, profanity or lack of understanding of the issue or history in this matter.  That honor goes to another who has been undone and finished by facts on this thread over and over again to the point of being rendered nothing more that an oddity of humanity. A person of foul mouth living in a world of their own resplendent denial, lies, bigotry, fanaticism and about every other low level human response one can name.  A person who has tried without success to impugn the integrity of every poster on the forum who would not fall into his bizarre need to worship a man of very questionable integrity.  A person who has morphed a discussion about a name on a high school into a self serving discussion about all of southern history and the civil war.  Does no one realize that this discussion is nothing more than a "hard on" for this poster?  Yes I said it because that is what this has now become.  Intelligent people being drawn into the madness of one mans personal agenda to further aggrandize an already grossly inflated perception of his own cleverness and ego.  He doesn't care what anyone else says or about the truth.  This is all a head game for him and so far, as long as he continues to draw people into it, he is winning that game.  He lost the argument a long time ago and this now is simply a game that to my view is not worth engaging in and by doing so losing the focus of the issue which began this thread.  Renaming one high school in one city that had nothing to do with it's namesake.   

Diane you are a piece of work.  You are delusional.  This description fits you perfectly. I can not count how many times you all have tried to pin a personality to this situation so you can then smear and pile upon them. I invite anyone to go back and look at the converstation. It is rather clear who has good intentions and who does not. 

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

Nothing new has been brought forth to change any of the above.

The fight may seem like it is over but the board could still change their mind and so could Vitti.  They just need to hear from regular people like me about how this is the wrong thing to do.  Everyone out there is scared to talk about this issue. They do not want to be labeled by people like you.

I will say this, if you went to school at NBF then you should write a letter to every school board member, Vitti, and your alumni board.  It is not too late and if you are a graduate they can not come after you and paint you out like some sort of extremist because you like your school name.

Ron is not the only one to think that the name is a great history lesson.  Here is a column by Mark Woods that says the same thing:  http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-10-05/mark-woods-study-history-those-forrest-debate-say

I have been saying this too. It is the right thing to do.

There is still hope. The Board and Vitti could change.

[Cheshire Cat]

Will not engage or read the above posting, just refocus on where the discussion currently is and needs to be. The bottom line right now is that the necessary arguments about the issue were made to the school board already, days and days ago.  Those arguing to keep the name failed to persuade the school board and they "unanimously" voted to go forward with the process necessary to change the name.  During that process those who are identified as stakeholders in the issue will be given documentation by the school board to fill out and reply to.  There will also be another open meeting where "stakeholders" can make their case one last time.  At that point the Superintendent will make a recommendation as to what the name should be and the final word will go to the school board.  Vitti has already said he supports the name change and the opinion of the school board at this juncture is also quite clear.  All of them without exception voted to move the process forward.  That is where we are at this juncture and no jawing on this forum by those wanting to retain the name on the school is going to make one bit of difference as a the decision has already been made. 

[Cheshire Cat]

On another and more sane note.  Those who are working to make sure the name change proceeds without difficulty and that the school board be kept abreast of the overwhelming and growing support for the name change, have plans already in motion that will continue to point out the importance of changing the name on a school that has caused so much angst for the community. A name that honors a creator of the KKK, former slave holder, facilitator of the Fort Pillow massacre and most importantly the reality that this man and his history have "nothing" to do with Jacksonville  Interestingly, the actions and words of individuals who are attempting to have the school board change course and keep the name on the school are actually now being used to "solidify" the reality that the name must go.  No one in the position of making the final decision is the least bit impressed by the apologists or their agenda.  Their votes and statements have shown this quite clearly. 

[Sgarey123]

That is why I am posting Diane.

It is so the people out there who are involved in this fight can find the right route to keeping the name. My contentions in this thread are solid and within politically acceptable boundaries set forth around us.

Their are all types of fans for Forrest. I am hoping that the my message will be replicated by them. I mean we have managed to get 16k hits on this thread. It is being read.

The School board is new and so is Vitt. None of them went to an older school in Jacksonville. They would be wise to take into consideration that they represent more than just transplants. Being new, however, I could see them seek "acceptance" from the media and the mob.  It will not serve them well unless of course they are being paid to do this already.

Tolerance. That is what is missing here.  The reasons for renaming this school are unfounded and mythical. Save our town from having to apologize for honoring one of the best Calvary soldiers ever seen.

[Sgarey123]

oh and by the way, I am not this Skot guy. I am a normal every day citizen with deep roots in this State and in the City of Jacksonville.

Again this is a very good article on how this should be seen:

http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-10-05/mark-woods-study-history-those-forrest-debate-say