Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[JayBird]

This is not a thread about 'The South'.  This is a thread about a high school in Jacksonville.

Good point and this is where I think a big issue comes in. I think some are fighting not for the man and his legacy but simply for the fact that another piece of "The South" fabric is being ripped away, to be forgotten. Which is understandable, but the real matter isn't about what the man did or didn't do in the 1860's somewhere in the southeastern US. It is about what was behind a group of Jacksonville resident appointed/elected board members selecting this man for naming of the school.

[ben says]

Haven't posted on this thread yet..less from ambivalence, more from "I'd rather not see people try to defend the name under the guise of XYZ"

The way I look at it...naming a school after Forrest in the US is like naming a school after Rommel in Germany. Dumb idea, change the name, moving on...

[Ocklawaha]

And, no, no one should be 'celebrating' black Confederates based on their race, that a racist and ridiculous argument.

Those are your words not mine stephen. I said, "One celebrates black Confederate soldiers for the same reason that we celebrate any other American soldier that was willing to or did in fact lay down their lives for their country." I never said they were celebrated because of their race, but because of their valor.

The idea that Forrest's Scouts included some 45 'men of color' silences any foolishness about Fort Pillow being a white Confederate army under Forrest kills all Black people arguments.

If this discussion is about the 'name' then it follows that some want the name removed because.... [add accusations about the general here] or [add accusations about the UDC or COJ here].

This thread kicked off with; "...different perspectives on the life of the former Memphis, TN slave trader and founder of the KKK." Attempt a defense and the thread is only about the name? REALLY?

[thelakelander]

Yelp, the reasoning for the naming of the school in the first place and moving Jax into the 21st century. That's what it's about for a lot of people.  That's pretty much the context. It's not a fight about the validity of the confederacy.

[JayBird]

Ock, so you are saying that you believe or know to be true that when the school board met in 1959 and named this school that it was 100% based off the heroic actions that this general led while in battle? It is a yes or no answer, and whatever your answer, then you can apply the opposite answer to "should the name be changed". Because that is the bottom line. Everything else is fluff of people trying to be right for the sake of being right.

[Sgarey123]

Quote from: thelakelander on Today at 12:22:19 AM
^The issue in this Forrest situation is the reasoning behind the 1959 naming of the school.  It's hard to defend the act of giving desegregation the middle finger.
Well said.  All of the other arguments against renaming are just red herrings.

I am happy to hear that everyone has no issues with the Confederacy. That renaming the school is not about "Forrest" and his deeds but mostly about how the name was chosen and why.

It seems we all have so far a few theories out there:

1) Middle finger to the Federal Government for inserting itself into local and state gov.

2) The trend of naming schools for Southern Military Heroes and Leaders.

3) The 100th Anniversary of the war was right around that time.

Any more? I bet we can come up with some.

I just have a hard time believing that any theory is enough to rename a school that has been around for 54 years. I mean you can not prove it.

No matter what you say this renaming is about General Forrest.  It is about Confederate named schools being renamed across the board.   This is a modern day lynching. A smear campaign against a figure of history. 

After Forrest who is next? Our founders? our City's name?

[thelakelander]

I just have a hard time believing that any theory is enough to rename a school that has been around for 54 years.

Segregation was around for 58 years before it was struck down five years before the opening of all white Forrest High.  Slavery in the US went on for nearly 300 years before the results of the Civil War ended it. Given your quote, is it safe to assume you would have been against the ending of segregation and slavery because of them being around longer than five decades?

[Sgarey123]

Segregation was around for 58 years before it was struck down five years before the opening of all white Forrest High.  Slavery in the US went on for nearly 300 years before the results of the Civil War ended it. Given your quote, is it safe to assume you would have been against the ending of segregation and slavery because of them being around longer than five decades?

That is some pretty crazy logic there.  You are comparing the existence of slavery and segregation to the name of a high school? Seriously?

As has been said over and over. The name of the school is not the problem we should all be focused on. We should be focusing on safety in schools.

[thelakelander]

Don'y be silly. I'm calling out the belief that something should not be changed because its been around for 54 years.

[thelakelander]

Oh, and we should be focusing on a lot of things.  Doesn't mean we can't achieve those goals and change the name though.

[Sgarey123]

So we have this boiled down to the following equation:

"The name of the High school being around 54 years is not a reason for it to be retained."

This is a matter of opinion. It is your opinion.

My opinion is that the fact that it has been in place for 54 years gives weight to not changing the name.  Things already in place have roots. They are harder to change.  There should be a very good reason to change something that has survived this long and affects so many people (roughly 500 x 54 = 27000 alums) .  It is also impossible to name schools after people or heroes in Duval County. That means that every time you remove a school that was dedicated to a person that it can not be replaced. 

Renaming this school after its being in place for  54 years also provides justification to renaming any school in Duval County.  It opens the door to a complete transformation of the town we live in right now. This affects even more people.  Some of the schools are very old (Jackson and Lee) and the numbers of those affected would be very high.

"The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new."

Socrates said this and it applies here.  Why attack this name? Why fight the old? Let it be and learn from it. Changing it just causes problems.  It is a really good learning tool.

There are many people in Jacksonville that do not want this school name changed. It is enough to matter. It should be enough for all of you. It should be enough for the School Board and Vitti as well.

[Sgarey123]

http://youwereliedtoabout.com/nbf.htm 

I just found this on another site.  It seems Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK after all. There are no sources to prove this assertion.

In fact there is proof stating otherwise!

It is amazing how the smear spins. 

Just think of all the time and space we could have saved in this forum if I had found this earlier!

[rbirds]

I'd like to take up the defense of the real Socrates when ill-used by Sgarey123 to defend retaining the name of Forrest HS. The cited phrase comes from a novel titled "Way of the Peaceful Warrior". It is a cheerfully inane book intended to bolster the reader's warrior spirit. The phrase comes from page 123 of the book:

Back in the office, Socrates drew some water from the spring water dispenser and put on the evening's tea specialty, rose hips, as he continued. "You have many habits that weaken you. The secret of change is to focus all your energy not on fighting the old, but on building the new."

Spectacularly meaningless but there you have it.

[thelakelander]

So we have this boiled down to the following equation:

"The name of the High school being around 54 years is not a reason for it to be retained."

This is a matter of opinion. It is your opinion.

What isn't opinion is how the school got its name in the first place and Forrest having no real historic link to Jacksonville. You can talk in circles to you're blue in the face but it doesn't change those facts. 

My opinion is that the fact that it has been in place for 54 years gives weight to not changing the name.  Things already in place have roots. They are harder to change.  There should be a very good reason to change something that has survived this long and affects so many people (roughly 500 x 54 = 27000 alums).

Many people said the same thing about MLK and Civil Rights. You could apply this same illogical reasoning to maintaining slavery, segregation, a dysfunctional transit system, unsustainable land uses and host of other things that were wrong but has lasted for decades....

[Sgarey123]

The link I provided gives sources.  It looks legit to me.  I see no problem with it being posted to help educate and combat this utter nonsense you guys support.  You source is more questionable (KKK).

It does call into question Nathan Bedford Forrest being associated with the KKK. This is now un-provable theory too.  Nathan Bedford Forrest never claimed to be in the club.

It looks like you guys are being quite selfish as this point.  Change for change sake is b*llsh!t.  You are trying to destroy something special.

So here we go (I left one out):

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

This is where we are in this discussion.  You need more than the above to bully through a name change on something that has been around for half a century.

Do you realize there are folks coming up on there 50th reunion?