America's Downtowns Ranked by Number of Employees

[PeeJayEss]

Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.

Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.

[ChriswUfGator]

Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.

Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.

That figure is also bogus, half the buildings down there have been demolished or turned into single-tenant government offices, and a sizeable chunk of what's left are either gutted or otherwise not in marketable condition, yet the total ft. sq. numbers haven't changed in decades.

[I-10east]

I knew that "Jax doesn't have 56,000, it truly has 500 people" argument was gonna come. LOL, so predictable, and funny I think.

[Kerry]

Did they miss Memphis on the list?  According to Memphis sources there 73,300 downtown employees.

http://www.memphisdailynews.com/news/2012/nov/2/downtown-rising/

[I-10east]

^^^I'm more concerned with jobs throughout the entire city, not only downtown with a rather unique small core. That being said, of course DT Jax definitely can use some jobs and housing there. 

[ChriswUfGator]

I knew that "Jax doesn't have 56,000, it truly has 500 people" argument was gonna come. LOL, so predictable, and funny I think.

This is getting a bit predictable at this point, don't you think it's time for a new schtick?

[ChriswUfGator]

^^^I'm more concerned with jobs throughout the entire city, not only downtown with a rather unique small core. That being said, of course DT Jax definitely can use some jobs and housing there. 

Well yes, after they demolished 2/3's of it what's left is small. Kind of missing the lesson there.

[I-10east]

Well yes, after they demolished 2/3's of it what's left is small. Kind of missing the lesson there.

Continue on arguing with reasonable commments....

[I-10east]

This is getting a bit predictable at this point, don't you think it's time for a new schtick?

I'm not the one with the tiresome negative 'schtick' here...

[peestandingup]

I-10 should start his own suburban jacksonville site, seeing that that seems to be ultimately what he wants. Its available too. Go for it, I-10! https://www.register.com/checkout/available-login.rcmx?domain=suburbanjacksonville.com&term=36&result=available&searchOrigin=homepage&domain=suburbanjacksonville&selectedTLDs=.com&bulkTest=true

[simms3]

Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.

Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.

That figure is also bogus, half the buildings down there have been demolished or turned into single-tenant government offices, and a sizeable chunk of what's left are either gutted or otherwise not in marketable condition, yet the total ft. sq. numbers haven't changed in decades.

There are 25 existing buildings (the 25 largest between Northbank, Southbank, Riverside Ave) that contain between 9 and 10 million SF.  It's not unreasonable to state that downtown has 12-15 million rentable SF.  This includes office space in 1-5 floor buildings, as well.  Yes, downtown is mostly surface parking.  But it actually has a sizable built environment (albeit super spread out).  And no that does not include City Hall or the City Hall Annex, but it does include privately owned buildings where the City happens to lease all or most of the space.

The type of employment can also make a difference.  Tech office space often has a ridiculously low tenant/space ratio.  I've heard of several deals that are sub 1:100 (1 employee per rentable SF).  Usable is a whole 'nother story.  Most of the office deals I have worked on recently have been tech deals where the floorplan of the space in question is designed for 1:110-1:150.  There are still law firms where the ratio is north of 1:500, just to point out the difference.

Therefore, it can be concluded that the reason that many people feel or comment that San Francisco can feel even busier than a Chicago (which is much larger) is that in addition to having pretty high building density (73 million RSF in an area 30% the size of Atlanta's CBD, or probably not too dissimilar as Northbank + Southbank), there is lots of tech employment with high employment densities, AND a very low vacancy rate.

[ChriswUfGator]

Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.

Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.

That figure is also bogus, half the buildings down there have been demolished or turned into single-tenant government offices, and a sizeable chunk of what's left are either gutted or otherwise not in marketable condition, yet the total ft. sq. numbers haven't changed in decades.

There are 25 existing buildings (the 25 largest between Northbank, Southbank, Riverside Ave) that contain between 9 and 10 million SF.  It's not unreasonable to state that downtown has 12-15 million rentable SF.  This includes office space in 1-5 floor buildings, as well.  Yes, downtown is mostly surface parking.  But it actually has a sizable built environment (albeit super spread out).  And no that does not include City Hall or the City Hall Annex, but it does include privately owned buildings where the City happens to lease all or most of the space.

The type of employment can also make a difference.  Tech office space often has a ridiculously low tenant/space ratio.  I've heard of several deals that are sub 1:100 (1 employee per rentable SF).  Usable is a whole 'nother story.  Most of the office deals I have worked on recently have been tech deals where the floorplan of the space in question is designed for 1:110-1:150.  There are still law firms where the ratio is north of 1:500, just to point out the difference.

Therefore, it can be concluded that the reason that many people feel or comment that San Francisco can feel even busier than a Chicago (which is much larger) is that in addition to having pretty high building density (73 million RSF in an area 30% the size of Atlanta's CBD, or probably not too dissimilar as Northbank + Southbank), there is lots of tech employment with high employment densities, AND a very low vacancy rate.

Right, but how many of those are single-tenant / never on market (e.g. CSX), or owned and occupied exclusively by COJ? To get to those figures you'd have to include everything that's been taken over as government offices and isn't participating in the market, which is why I said the figure is misleading. And I'm talking the northbank, the south bank was shipyards until the 1960s.

[PeeJayEss]

Right, but how many of those are single-tenant / never on market (e.g. CSX), or owned and occupied exclusively by COJ? To get to those figures you'd have to include everything that's been taken over as government offices and isn't participating in the market, which is why I said the figure is misleading. And I'm talking the northbank, the south bank was shipyards until the 1960s.

I get it now. You just don't count major employers in your numbers.

56,000 sounds high, even counting Riverside Ave and the Southbank, unless they have expanded their area a bit (Shands, Riverside, San Marco), but 8000 is equally off the mark for Northbank employment. These numbers are for employees, not some intangible "market participation" index. DVI's numbers are pretty close, though certainly not updated daily:
http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx

The 7.3 million SF DVI has even seems small, since it appears they are counting all three areas, and you can easily piece together 5 million SF from the 10 or so biggest offices on the northbank. Granted, some of those have 60+% vacancy rates.

[ChriswUfGator]

Right, but how many of those are single-tenant / never on market (e.g. CSX), or owned and occupied exclusively by COJ? To get to those figures you'd have to include everything that's been taken over as government offices and isn't participating in the market, which is why I said the figure is misleading. And I'm talking the northbank, the south bank was shipyards until the 1960s.

I get it now. You just don't count major employers in your numbers.

56,000 sounds high, even counting Riverside Ave and the Southbank, unless they have expanded their area a bit (Shands, Riverside, San Marco), but 8000 is equally off the mark for Northbank employment. These numbers are for employees, not some intangible "market participation" index. DVI's numbers are pretty close, though certainly not updated daily:
http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx

The 7.3 million SF DVI has even seems small, since it appears they are counting all three areas, and you can easily piece together 5 million SF from the 10 or so biggest offices on the northbank. Granted, some of those have 60+% vacancy rates.

No I am not refusing to count anything, the problem is some folks just want to argue absurd numbers. I mean, you just admitted in your post you can see 7mm ft. sq. +/- down there and that there's a greater than 50% vacancy rate, what I originally responded to was a ludicrous claim of 12mm - 15mm ft. sq. It looks like we already agree with each other more than we don't.

[tufsu1]

the only absurd # posted here is 8,000 workers on the northbank...after all, COJ has nearly 6,000 alone