Convention Center - Regional Transportation Center

[thelakelander]

My case for a convention center at the courthouse site would be for a mixed use structure. There's no reason you can't have retail, dining, and entertainment at street level with an exhibition hall above. Of course, this assumes that we decide it's worth the investment.

[JayBird]

The Hyatt has been staying off creditors and foreclosure for some time.  I'm quite sure they are not in a position to be a partner in any relocation of the convention center. 

Up until this past July, and still as far as I know, the Hyatt management very much wants this, and has been actively pushing for it. And all of the talk concerning design has included retail/entertainment options. Bottom line, location is pretty much set in stone, the only discussion left is "is it worth the investment" and "who will the players be". The Jacksonville Civic Council did a draft outline of what may be entailed, and it seems to be what the basic outline for any project that evolves. Linked below.

http://jaxciviccouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Northbank-Redevelopment-Task-Force-Final-report-020111-21.pdf

[Steve]

With a proper facility, we can definitely compete. And most convention centers bring indirect economic impact, meaning th building itself doesn't make money, but the people in hotels eating at restaurants and drinking at bars do. While the owners of th Hyatt in Jacksonville are struggling with this property, it is a leap to say that the owners of the Hyatt (which is not Hyatt Hotels) are struggling, nor is Hyatt Hotels struggling. If a good opportunity presents itself, they will listen.

If you listen to what turned Downtown San Diego around, it was four things: Convention Center, Light Rail, Horton Plaza (a mall), and later on, Petco Park, the Padres Stadium.

Jacksonville can compete in the convention business, as long as don't try to compete again the big four (Orlando, New Orleans, Chicago, and Las Vegas). We can and should be competing against cities like Birmingham though.

And finally, it goes without saying that it most definitely should have a retail component on Bay Street.

[urbanlibertarian]

I'm not a fan of COJ being in the convention center business at all, BUT is there a way it could be done at the old courthouse site so that the property (at least eventually) generates ad valorem taxes?   Wasn't one of the benefits of moving public buildings away from the river to get those properties on the tax rolls?

I think this is where a public-private partnership can come in. A convention center likely won't sustain itself, but if the city can negotiate with the Hyatt owners, that will likely be the best plan. Like, something where they build and manage it, but the city gives them some breaks and incentives in the short term. This might be cheaper than the city paying for it entirely, and the Hyatt gets a guarantee they won't lose their shirts.

Are there any working examples of convention centers that are public/private partnerships?  If so, what is the ratio of public to private share of the investment?

[icarus]

The old Courthouse site has a relatively small footprint of real estate with half if not a larger portion being a dock (of unknown condition).  Street level retail and entertainment impact the design of the building and its effectiveness as a convention center.

Most successful convention centers that I have been to have the ability to bring tractor trailers directly into or adjacent to the convention space.  I'm not sure how you satisfy everyone's ideas/wishlist and still provide the necessary access and staging areas.

Sure, we can build something there with street level mixed use but its going to be at best a tier 3 or tier 2 center at that location. Again, I am just not impressed with that as a location.

[HisBuffPVB]

Yes, there should be a convention center in our city. Location is the question and will be the issue.It would not hurt to see how cities of comparable size have handled this issue.

[thelakelander]

Icarus, the site is a sloping one. There's more than enough space to accommodate a convention center of Jax's needs for the foreseeable future. With that said, all possible sites have their pros and cons. For example, in addition to being isolated and without complementing uses nearby, the Shipyards and JEA sites are also contaminated.

[Ocklawaha]

Icarus, the site is a sloping one. There's more than enough space to accommodate a convention center of Jax's needs for the foreseeable future. With that said, all possible sites have their pros and cons. For example, in addition to being isolated and without complementing uses nearby, the Shipyards and JEA sites are also contaminated.

Nothing that a can of WD-40, duct tape and bondo couldn't fix!   

[thelakelander]

LOL. Anyway, just digging up some old stuff... Here's the Civic Council's conceptual exhibition hall layout from a couple of years ago.  They caught a lot of flack for adding a parking garage over the existing historic Hermiker Block.

Although Hyatt has expressed an interest in constructing a 180,000 convention center on these sites, the Civic Council recommends the construction of an 80,000 square foot exhibition hall to replace the 19-story city hall (courthouse annex) building.  This two story exhibition hall would be attached to the Hyatt's existing meeting spaces and include street level retail/dining space along Bay Street.

A mixed use development would be constructed where the courthouse currently stands and the existing parking lot would remain.  In addition, Civic Council plans for this area include demolishing the historic Hermiker Block along Newnan Street for the construction of a 325-space parking garage.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-the-jacksonville-civic-councils-plans-for-downtown

[icarus]

This actually makes a lot more sense to me.  Constructing an 80k sq. ft space immediately adjacent to the Hyatt on the old  City Hall site with street level retail which would leave the waterfront site open for development.

Convention supporters need to do a gut check.  How many conventions do we have and how many events are held at the Marriott at Sawgrass? The 80k space would fulfill most not all of our current convention business.

I think the Civic Council got this one right.  Thanks for sharing.

[Jason]

Some good reading...

This link contains images for the Transform Jax concept for a center at the courthouse location:
http://transformjax.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/more-convention-center-concept-images/


Some good data and examples of successful urban centers with a mix of uses:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-may-convention-centers-how-do-we-compare

[tufsu1]

This actually makes a lot more sense to me.  Constructing an 80k sq. ft space immediately adjacent to the Hyatt on the old  City Hall site with street level retail which would leave the waterfront site open for development.

Convention supporters need to do a gut check.  How many conventions do we have and how many events are held at the Marriott at Sawgrass? The 80k space would fulfill most not all of our current convention business.

I think the Civic Council got this one right.  Thanks for sharing.

80,000sf isn't close to getting it done....currently we have a nearly 80,000 sf exhibit hall and a center with over 200,000 sf total.

what is needed here (and studied numerous times) is 200,000 sf exhibit all and total  center size of about double that

[icarus]

Besides the home and patio show(s) and gun show(s) .. what actual convention business do we get right now at the Prime Osborn?

In the last fifteen years, every meeting, conference, trade group, etc. that I have attended has been at the Sawgrass Marriott or the Ritz Carlton. Lets face it. People from out of town would rather meet at the beach than at a building with a leaking roof separated from everything in town by open fields of broken concrete and weeds.

If a private/public venture was used to add 80,000 of exhibition space with additional facility space for breakouts, meetings and smaller conferences at the old City Hall site, I think it would be a real shot in the arm to the only viable convention hotel we have at this point.  It would be a boon to the immediate area and would put us into a position to consider something bigger next door at the old Courthouse site.

Our City is in no position for a moon shot on a convention center ... not when we have so many other priorities more likely to deliver long term business to our City.

[thelakelander]

I've been to quite a few conventions and trade shows and other events at the PO. Black Expo was just this past weekend.  Also, a few conventions have outgrown the Prime Osborn and moved on to cities that offer more convention space.  Below, a quote from a similar discussion in 2010 about the need for a new convention center.

Jacksonville Business Journal - April 20, 2007
by Rachel Witkowski Staff Writer

JACKSONVILLE -- The Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center's size and distance from a hotel has cost the city's economy more than $48 million this year.

Business groups that had planned to hold conventions at the center in 2007 but decided to go to another market equated to a loss of $48.4 million based on the room-nights they would have generated for the city, according to the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau. The city has lost nearly $140 million from groups that have left from 2006 to 2008.[/color]

The 78,500 square feet of exhibit space at the Prime Osborn is limiting its ability to attract state and national conventions while local events' potential to make money is also being constrained by the building's size.

The city and the CVB, through the convention center task force, are looking into expanding the Prime Osborn or building a new convention center. The task force will present a final report later this year, but meanwhile the numbers are staggering.

The CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.

The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.

Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.

The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.[/color]

Both conventions will host their events at Daytona's Ocean Center in 2009, the same year it will open as an expanded convention center with 452,491 square feet of space, nearly double its existing size. The center is offering incentives and promotions for businesses that bring events to Ocean Center within the first year of its reopening, Smith said.

The State Cheer & Dance had reached a point where it was trying to book during Martin Luther King Jr. Day weekend because it would have needed to extend its event by a day to compensate for space limitations, she said.

The CVB has enough time to replace the events with other business but it will be difficult since both occurred at the beginning of the year.

"It's easier to keep a customer than it is to create a customer," said John Reyes, president and CEO of the CVB.

Limited space also leads to less availability. Event coordinators, on average, must plan on taking two days to move in and a day to move out, Reyes said. By contrast, the Prime Osborn could house two events simultaneously if its exhibit space was expanded to 280,000 square feet, which represents 85 percent of the convention center market nationally.[/color]

Opportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.

The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.

Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.

Reyes said if the city creates a new or expanded convention center, it could bring back lost business. "But you can't bring it back if you don't have something to offer."

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html

I agree with tufsu1 that it would be a waste of money to building a new center the exact same size as the PO.  You could probably get away with less than 200k but even Huntsville, AL features more than 80k of clear exhibition space.  If we're going to invest in it, we might as well get it right.

[icarus]

I think you misunderstand what I am saying.

I am saying a temporary or stop gap of adding the space on old City Hall site to make Prime Osborn available for transportation.  Further expand or build the larger convention center next door at the courthouse site.

Sometimes we get what we want but not just all at once.