Mathews Bridge Breaking News

[simms3]

by the way the bridge above cost $6.7B, and is suspension, not cable-stayed.  A new Matthews wouldn't be nearly that expensive, but would surely be very very expensive as it is ($1B?) and considering.  The bridge above replaced a cantilever section not unlike the Matthews, except the cantilever was doubledecker and had already partially collapsed in an earthquake (the whole section had been deemed unsafe for the two+ decades it remained open after 1989).

[Charles Hunter]

From what I remember about the Mathews replacement studies, just replacing the bridge isn't enough - at the very least, have to rebuild the interchanges on each end (MLK and University), and should rebuild the Arlington Expressway from the east, and The Expressway With No Name from the west.  So, yeah, a Billion is probably a pretty good guess.

[Ocklawaha]

And... 'Expect a Cable-Stayed bridge with a clear center span.'

I hope I'm not sounding facetious, because this is a sincere question: what is a clear center span, as opposed to an unclear one?

Didn't mean to ignore your question there Scrub Palmetto. Here are a couple of examples of what they were talking about.


This is the Savannah River Bridge in Savannah. Georgia. Note that the towers are both on the shore which leaves the entire river channel open for unobstructed shipping. This bridge has a clear center span.


Here is a similar angle of the Dames Point Bridge, note that the northern tower is actually in the edge of the shipping channel. This is why the two dolphins (the round bumpers) were placed there, this, along with the vertical clearance were both huge bones of contention when the project moved forward. This bridge has an obstruction in the center span.

Remember I'm just passing on some VERY INTERESTING conversation from our little bash last night. These guys are not pulling the triggers but they must be plugging in their expertise. It really bothered me that they both agreed with my theories of the bridges weakness and that they will 'rather recklessly' reopen this to keep from having a black eye. It might reopen in a week and stand another 100 years... but I think I'll take the Hart.

[coredumped]

A couple of months ago I tried to pull back up the FDOT/COJ website for the Mathews Bridge Replacement Project.

The site has been down for several years. I found parts of it on Rewind, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it mysteriously reappears in the next week or so.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100516044441/http://mathewsbridge.com/master.asp

The last link on the internet archive for the mathewsbridge.com site is back in May of 2010. Not very useful as a lot of the links don't work

[tufsu1]

EXACTLY, this is WAY bigger then the local media or the DOT boys are letting on.

do you know something they don't?

Spoke with my bridge engineer friends at a social function tonight here in WGV. They've basically said it's going to be bid like next week and they are pushing for replacement and reopening within a couple of weeks. But when they saw what I wrote above, they all FULLY AGREED and added: 'They will HAVE TO REPLACE IT NOW for safety.' And... 'Expect a Cable-Stayed bridge with a clear center span.'

So maybe I do... We'll see!

sorry Ock, but I'm calling BS here...unless those guys were up on the bridge the other day and/or involved with the analysis done this weekend, then it is just pure speculation.

and yes...if they were going to replace the bridge, they would likely build 6 or 8 lanes....which as noted above, would necessitate rebuilding interchanges at either end.....which even in an "emergency" situation, would likely take 2-3 years.

[simms3]

And... 'Expect a Cable-Stayed bridge with a clear center span.'

I hope I'm not sounding facetious, because this is a sincere question: what is a clear center span, as opposed to an unclear one?

Didn't mean to ignore your question there Scrub Palmetto. Here are a couple of examples of what they were talking about.


This is the Savannah River Bridge in Savannah. Georgia. Note that the towers are both on the shore which leaves the entire river channel open for unobstructed shipping. This bridge has a clear center span.


Here is a similar angle of the Dames Point Bridge, note that the northern tower is actually in the edge of the shipping channel. This is why the two dolphins (the round bumpers) were placed there, this, along with the vertical clearance were both huge bones of contention when the project moved forward. This bridge has an obstruction in the center span.

Remember I'm just passing on some VERY INTERESTING conversation from our little bash last night. These guys are not pulling the triggers but they must be plugging in their expertise. It really bothered me that they both agreed with my theories of the bridges weakness and that they will 'rather recklessly' reopen this to keep from having a black eye. It might reopen in a week and stand another 100 years... but I think I'll take the Hart.

Thanks for clarifying Clear Center Span (was thinking it meant separated spans as in SF's newest bridge).  But you also mentioned single tower cable-stayed.  Given the width of the SJR there relative to Savannah River (your clear span example), is it possible to have a single-tower clear center span?  That's a tallll tower.


Also, what are the benefits of a clear center span right there?  Especially if there aren't going to be many ships coming through?  Would it have helped in this case?  Or is just the design du jour?

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks for clarifying Clear Center Span (was thinking it meant separated spans as in SF's newest bridge).  But you also mentioned single tower cable-stayed.  Given the width of the SJR there relative to Savannah River (your clear span example), is it possible to have a single-tower clear center span?  That's a tallll tower.

Also, what are the benefits of a clear center span right there?  Especially if there aren't going to be many ships coming through?  Would it have helped in this case?  Or is just the design du jour?

ON THE DAMES POINT BRIDGE: Not a single tower cable stayed, just that our one tower is in the drink and shouldn't have been. Any future bridge needs to have one tower on the land, and the other over nearer Exchange Island, leaving a broad channel . The JAXPORT and Maritime interests absolutely created a firestorm to try and get JTA/DOT to raise and lengthen that span, as I recall they got next to nothing. Today the port and the public will pay for that error for decades to come. The only redeeming value being that a cable-stayed bridge CAN BE raised fairly easily, segment by segment, cable by cable. It is going to happen in New York Harbor. We could gain maybe 5-10 feet, I doubt much more without it getting REALLY expensive.

ON THE MATHEWS: The benefits of the clear span would be ships making that sweeping turn would not have to negotiate both a bridge and a right angle turn in a river with either northbound current or southbound tidal ebb and flow. The shipyard on Commodore Point has been growing rapidly and seems to be getting a lot of defense contracts. We really don't have a very useful piece of property on the seaward side of the bridges to offer them as an alternative.

As for a clear span helping in this case, YES. The tugs were working along with a dock master to reposition the ship, they entered the channel and tried to transit under the bridge and push up to the yard on the riverine side of the bridge. They had to watch for the tallest point, and apparently misjudged, were caught by current, wind, unexpected/detected tides etc.


Just speculating what might be done with a new cable-stayed bridge. We could get a LOT more wiggle room.

[spuwho]

Hmm. If that happens, I hope they can at least make room for transit, bike and ped. Also, that would mean the closure would last a few years and funding would have to be shifted from several other projects.

Lake,

I have seen the designs for the Mathews Replacement Project from 2007-2009 and there was room placed for pedestrian and transit in the cross section view.

Oddly, I had been looking for it off and on for the past few months before the bridge was struck.

RS&H did the study so I am sure it is floating around in one of their archives. A few phone calls and emails will probably pry it back out for view.

The last entry that I could recall from memory was that FDOT and JTA were working on the process to reserve funds to start the effort, but I never heard why they canned it. At this point I can only assume it was the bust in the economy.

[spuwho]

Here is a PDF of the study on the Mathews Replacement on the possible changes required on the MLK.

The new span was to be built on each side of the old. Either keeping the old as a transit/pedway or demolishing it with the transit/pedway built into the new one.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070721001649/http://www.mathewsbridge.com/assets/RecAlternatives/Bridge%20Alternatives.pdf

[spuwho]

From the bridge study.

Jacksonville Downtown/Mathews Bridge Expressway

Existing

    4 Lanes

Possible Alternatives

    8 Lanes + Transit


Mathews Bridge Alternatives

Potential Option 1: Single Bridge Option

    Alignment Parallel to Existing Bridge
    8 Vehicle Lanes, Transit
    Replaces Existing Bridge


Potential Option 2: Separate Vehicle and Transit Bridges

    Alignment Parallel to Existing Bridge
    8 Vehicle Lanes
    Provide Transit Crossing on Rehabilitated Existing Bridge


Potential Option 3: Phased Bridge Construction

    Construct 4-Lane Bridge
    4 Lanes of Traffic on New Bridge
    Transit Envelope on Initial Bridge

[I-10east]

And... 'Expect a Cable-Stayed bridge with a clear center span.'

I hope I'm not sounding facetious, because this is a sincere question: what is a clear center span, as opposed to an unclear one?

Didn't mean to ignore your question there Scrub Palmetto. Here are a couple of examples of what they were talking about.


This is the Savannah River Bridge in Savannah. Georgia. Note that the towers are both on the shore which leaves the entire river channel open for unobstructed shipping. This bridge has a clear center span.


Here is a similar angle of the Dames Point Bridge, note that the northern tower is actually in the edge of the shipping channel. This is why the two dolphins (the round bumpers) were placed there, this, along with the vertical clearance were both huge bones of contention when the project moved forward. This bridge has an obstruction in the center span.

Remember I'm just passing on some VERY INTERESTING conversation from our little bash last night. These guys are not pulling the triggers but they must be plugging in their expertise. It really bothered me that they both agreed with my theories of the bridges weakness and that they will 'rather recklessly' reopen this to keep from having a black eye. It might reopen in a week and stand another 100 years... but I think I'll take the Hart.

The Savannah River looks alot more narrow than the St John's at those respective bridge points. IMO it's no big deal with Dames Point Bridges Towers being out in the water. With most considerable bodies of water, towers are gonna be in the water esp non-suspension bridges. I wouldn't call Dames Points channel 'obstructed' by no means as it's nothing unique from many bridges. That's really some pathetic navigation skills if you miss that channel.

[I-10east]

IMO the older-style cable stayed bridges (with two towers, and two sets of cables on each side like the Dames Point, Talmadge Memorial in Savannah) look more aesthetically pleasing and classic than these newer versions. The newer versions may be more efficient or whatever, but to me they look like an ugly oversized pedestrian bridge. I guess that a 'more efficient' bastardized version of the suspension bridge is bound to happen in the future...

[Scrub Palmetto]

Thanks for the explanation, Ock!

I know it will need replacing sooner or later, and my phobia is much less on cable-stayed bridges, but I have to say it's kind of a shame. I've always liked the way Jacksonville's older bridges looked and their variety of colors. I liked the look of the old Acosta better than the new one, the old Fuller Warren better than the new one, and with 90%+ of cable-stayed bridges being the same bland color, I'll probably like the look of the current Matthews better than the future one.

I at least like that the Dames Point has the rarer parallel harp configuration. But I imagine, especially if the replacement has to come earlier because of this accident, the replacement Matthews will be as generic and average a cable-stayed bridge as they come. 

[Jason]

All this talk about billion dollar bridges makes me wonder if we should be thinking TUNNEL.

[tufsu1]

The last entry that I could recall from memory was that FDOT and JTA were working on the process to reserve funds to start the effort, but I never heard why they canned it. At this point I can only assume it was the bust in the economy.

the study findings showed massive impacts to surrounding neighborhoods and environment....keep in mind the expressways on either end of the bridge also "needed" widening....that's why the study has gone nowhere.

A ballpark estimate for replacing the bridge itself (based on other recent projects in FL) is $300-$350 million.