How far are we on developing that Plan B for JAXPORT?

[tufsu1]

Isn't the dredging project only to Dames Point?

yes

[simms3]

I think Jax has opportunity to grow.  When looking at the growth in trade globally, as well as the size of the ports across the world relative even to NA ports, it becomes evident that there is business/growth to tap into for all ports with some foothold.

Looking at NAFTA ports and their TEU growth from 2011 to 2012, Jax performed better than the traditionally large container ports of LA/Long Beach, NY/NJ, Oakland, Savannah, and Seattle, but was bested by Hampton Roads/Newport News, Charleston, SoFla ports, and Houston.  The real growth is in Mexico and Canada, logically.

Baton Rouge   N/A
Portland, ME   N/A
Chicago   N/A
Lazaro Cardenas (Mex)   30.3%
Mobile   29.3%
Honolulu   26.4%
Vancouver/Prince Rupert (Can)   12.4%
Hampton Roads/Norfolk   9.8%
Charleston   9.6%
Veracruz (Mex)   9.6%
Manzanillo (Mex)   9.6%
Anchorage   7.4%
Baltimore   7.3%
Altamira (Mex)   5.7%
Miami/FTL/WPB   3.2%
Houston/Galveston/Texas City   3.0%
Jacksonville   2.6%
Seattle/Tacoma   1.7%
Montreal (Can)   0.9%
LA/Long Beach   0.9%
Savannah   0.7%
Tampa   0.6%
NY/NJ   0.5%
Oakland/Richmond/SF   0.1%
Boston   -2.6%
New Orleans   -2.6%
San Juan (PR)   -4.1%
Philadelphia   -6.1%
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA   -7.2%


In terms of sheer volume of TEUs, Jax is one of only a handful of container ports in the country, and while it is at the back of the pack, it probably has some of the most room to grow.  In my research, I came across the largest ship to enter SF Bay (1,200 ft MSC Fabiola)...it couldn't dock at MSC's berths at Long Beach due to the height of the Gerald Desmond Bridge (155 ft clearance, lower than Dames Point), and instead had to dock at Hanjin's berths.  So even the largest ports with the most funding and the best access to the largest markets have their shortcomings and infrastructure roadblocks.

But continuing on...how much room does LA/Long Beach have to grow?  Oakland?  SeaTac?  NY/NJ?  Hampton Roads/Newport News?  Houston?  Miami/Port Everglades?  These are all natural gateway markets for goods, services, and immigrants, but they do face limitations due to their current size and configurations.

LA/Long Beach   14,123,376
NY/NJ   5,529,913
Seattle/Tacoma   3,580,626
Vancouver/Prince Rupert (Can)   3,278,017
Savannah   2,966,213
Oakland/Richmond/SF   2,344,424
Hampton Roads/Norfolk   2,105,886
Miami/FTL/WPB   2,063,815
Manzanillo (Mex)   1,930,893
Houston/Galveston/Texas City   1,922,529
Charleston   1,514,585
San Juan (PR)   1,423,192
Montreal (Can)   1,375,327
Lazaro Cardenas (Mex)   1,242,777
Honolulu   1,187,024
Jacksonville   923,660
Veracruz (Mex)   799,389
Baltimore   677,876
Altamira (Mex)   578,685
New Orleans   464,834
Anchorage   454,777
Philadelphia   273,190
Mobile   218,844
Boston   187,747
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA   183,202
Tampa   39,882
Baton Rouge   0
Portland, ME   0
Chicago   0


And just for shits and giggles, port/port conglomerates by tonnage (US measurements).

FOREIGN IMPORTS

Houston/Galveston/Texas City   121,326,782
LA/Long Beach   77,130,679
NY/NJ   65,406,950
Philadelphia   18,867,225
New Orleans   18,486,234
Oakland/Richmond/SF   18,102,420
Savannah   16,720,274
Baton Rouge   15,066,060
Mobile   14,709,539
Seattle/Tacoma   13,859,704
Baltimore   13,222,656
Portland, ME   11,738,281
Miami/FTL/WPB   10,778,396
Boston   10,760,202
Hampton Roads/Norfolk   9,672,439
Charleston   9,477,707
Jacksonville   7,513,504
Tampa   4,851,071
San Juan (PR)   4,602,736
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA   3,986,395
Chicago   2,428,057
Honolulu   718,641
Anchorage   503,739

Clearly some of these cities are strictly oil (Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Mobile)

FOREIGN EXPORTS

Houston/Galveston/Texas City   91,911,851
LA/Long Beach   48,030,741
Savannah   33,107,797
Oakland/Richmond/SF   30,448,241
Seattle/Tacoma   25,999,391
NY/NJ   24,087,067
Hampton Roads/Norfolk   21,490,474
New Orleans   19,747,780
Mobile   14,936,810
Miami/FTL/WPB   8,037,867
Baton Rouge   6,984,976
Charleston   6,016,320
Tampa   5,600,738
Jacksonville   2,489,201
Boston   1,611,277
San Juan (PR)   432,150
Honolulu   362,361
Portland, ME   23,980
Anchorage   9,999
Philadelphia   0
Baltimore   0
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA   0
Chicago   0


DOMESTIC

Houston/Galveston/Texas City   70,721,272
NY/NJ   49,678,657
New Orleans   38,940,698
Baton Rouge   35,820,864
Mobile   25,906,034
Tampa   20,956,104
LA/Long Beach   20,106,605
Oakland/Richmond/SF   13,678,847
Honolulu   11,576,697
Miami/FTL/WPB   11,220,638
Philadelphia   11,010,701
Hampton Roads/Norfolk   9,914,650
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA   9,743,605
Baltimore   8,100,274
Jacksonville   6,824,886
Boston   6,035,639
Seattle/Tacoma   6,030,044
San Juan (PR)   5,992,374
Charleston   2,422,591
Savannah   2,351,500
Anchorage   2,270,172
Portland, ME   1,415,707
Chicago   0


TOTAL TONNAGE

Houston/Galveston/Texas City   283,959,905
LA/Long Beach   146,949,636
NY/NJ   141,334,875
New Orleans   77,174,712
Oakland/Richmond/SF   62,229,508
Baton Rouge   57,871,900
Mobile   55,552,383
Savannah   52,179,571
Seattle/Tacoma   45,889,139
Hampton Roads/Norfolk   41,077,563
Miami/FTL/WPB   31,878,830
Tampa   31,407,913
Philadelphia   29,877,926
Baltimore   21,322,930
Boston   19,091,724
Charleston   17,916,618
Jacksonville   16,827,591
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA   13,730,000
Portland, ME   13,177,968
Honolulu   12,657,699
San Juan (PR)   11,027,260
Anchorage   5,327,015
Chicago   3,739,679



Clearly there are themes here.  But Jacksonville is in the running if it wants to tackle growth in global trade.  Air cargo only goes so far and there are only so many ports in coastal cities with access to water-rail transfer and convenience to large markets.

[simms3]

In terms of sheer volume of TEUs, Jax is one of only a handful of container ports in the country, and while it is at the back of the pack, it probably has some of the most room to grow.  In my research, I came across the largest ship to enter SF Bay (1,200 ft MSC Fabiola)...it couldn't dock at MSC's berths at Long Beach due to the height of the Gerald Desmond Bridge (155 ft clearance, lower than Dames Point), and instead had to dock at Hanjin's berths.  So even the largest ports with the most funding and the best access to the largest markets have their shortcomings and infrastructure roadblocks.

But continuing on...how much room does LA/Long Beach have to grow?  Oakland?  SeaTac?  NY/NJ?  Hampton Roads/Newport News?  Houston?  Miami/Port Everglades?  These are all natural gateway markets for goods, services, and immigrants, but they do face limitations due to their current size and configurations.

Just reading up on my own local port system, the Port of Oakland has a rather informative Wiki page.

In 1962, the Port of Oakland began to admit container ships. Container traffic greatly increased the amount of cargo loaded and unloaded in the Port. By the late 1960s, the Port of Oakland was the second largest port in the world in container tonnage. However, depth and navigation restrictions in San Francisco Bay limited its capacity, and by the late 1970s it had been supplanted by the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach as the major container port on the West Coast.

...

One of the main limitations to growth was the inability to transfer containers to rail lines, all cranes historically operating between ocean vessels and trucks. In the 1980s the Port of Oakland began the evaluation of development of an intermodal container transfer capability, i.e. facilities that would allow trans-loading of containers from vessels to either trucks or rail modes. The Port retained VZM, Korve Engineering and Earth Metrics to perform engineering and environmental studies to allow detailed engineering to proceed.[3] In 1987, on behalf of the Oakland port Commission, Allen Broussard led a group of 72 lawyers and city officials on a 3-week long trip to China meeting the Mayor of Shanghai, Jiang Zemin (Shanghai is twinned with San Francisco)[4]

Completion of the resulting rail intermodal facility occurred in 2002. That brought the cumulative investment of port expansion to over 1.4 billion dollars since 1962, half of which was comprised by the intermodal facility. In the early first decade of the 21st century, the new intermodal rail facility along with severe congestion at the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach caused some trans-Pacific shippers to move some of their traffic to the Port of Oakland (especially if the final destination is not in Southern California but lies farther east). Also, the Port is now reaping the benefits of investment in post-panamax cranes, dredging, and the transfer of military property, which has now been used for expansion.[5]

Deepening of the port from 42 feet (13 m) to 50 feet (15 m) to accommodate larger ships has been completed. The ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, Seattle and Tacoma were already 50 feet (15 m) deep. The $432 million project was finished in September 2009.[6] Some 6,000,000 cubic yards (4,600,000 m3) of mud from the dredging was deposited at the western edge of Middle Harbor Shoreline Park to become a 188-acre (76 ha) shallow-water wetlands habitat for marine and shore life.[7] Further dredging followed in 2011, to maintain the navigation channel.[8][9] Prior to the March 2012 arrival of the MSC Fabiola, the largest container ship ever to enter the San Francisco Bay, the Port of Oakland prepared by checking channel depth and dredging as needed. The ship arrived drawing less than its full draft of 50 feet 10 inches (15.5 m) because it held only three-quarters of a load.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Oakland

So checking up on articles used for Wiki article, I found this from SF Gate

The recession hammered the Port of Oakland as imports from Asia plummeted and exports slowed, but the recent completion of a $432 million project to deepen Oakland's harbor preps the port to compete with other top trade cities when the economy improves, officials and experts say.

The 12-year project, funded with $188 million from the port and $244 million in federal dollars, excavated most of Oakland's terminals from 42-feet to 50-feet, allowing them to accommodate modern, large cargo ships at lower tides even when the vessels are fully loaded with goods.

Prior to the work, ships might have been forced to unload some cargo at other ports before sailing to Oakland or schedule calls at the port around higher tides, port officials said.

Oakland's West Coast competitors, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Seattle and Tacoma, Wash., all have harbors that are 50 feet or deeper. So far, however, Oakland has been able to keep pace. The port is the fifth busiest in the United States, behind Los Angeles, Long Beach, New York and Savannah, Ga.

"This keeps us in play with the big boys," said Jean Banker, the port's maritime division finance manager. "We will always be a major port because we've got that kind of depth; Oakland will retain global gateway status."

...

Terminal operators at the port say Oakland needed to deepen the harbor to stay competitive when the economy picks up.

"It was huge that the port was able to accomplish" the dredging, said Mike Porte, the general manager at TraPac, a terminal operator. "The ships worldwide are larger and they sit lower in the water; if they hadn't done it, the carriers wouldn't be able to bring ships in and we would have become a backwater port."

Dave Sanford, director of policy and legislation at the American Association of Port Authorities, said that experts in the shipping industry believe that the 50-foot harbors will be necessary to handle the influx of goods from Asia in the coming years.

Before the economic downturn, it was widely believed that imports from China would double by 2020. And in 2004, Southern California's lack of cargo capacity left ships stranded off the coast unable to offload goods.

At the time, Oakland's commerce was weighted toward exports. For several years now, the port has tried to increase its imports and had succeeded when the economy went south.

"The economy is showing signs of rebounding, so we would expect that in a relatively short period of time the economics prior to the downturn will resume and Oakland's decision to deepen its harbor will be viewed as a wise one," Sanford said.

Interesting how Oakland went from busiest cargo port in world in 60s when it opened to almost irrelevant by the late 2000s, to now back to being one of the most important national, perhaps even global ports.  Could Jacksonville follow in footsteps?  Maybe Mayport's stagnation and wasteful use of such prime land is not so valuable after all, and that could be a good place for a deepwater port with larger cranes and a wide turning basin, protection from tides, and convenience to sea?  It's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.

[thelakelander]

It's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.

Except without rail.

[simms3]

It's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.

Except without rail.

It's obviously never going to happen, but should the city quit forcing itself to rely on the military, which over the past 10-15 years has let the city down, and start lobbying to re-use Mayport in another way (let VA have all those small, less-crew modern naval ships), then if the city were actually serious - the money it would need to spend to reconfigure Mayport to commercial port would be far greater than bringing rail to the port.  Plus, it would eliminate the need to dredge and deepen the SJR, thus working to protect the environment, drinking water, PWC use, and scenery.

A fully functional commercial port at the basin/mouth of the SJR combined with what's still operating at Talleyrand/Blount Island probably means a lot more for the local economy than whatever Mayport's saying it gives the city with its constant cuts, fewer and fewer ships, and constant political loss to other jurisdictions.

Not to mention more port = more union jobs, which means more political sway in Washington.

This is basically describing your initial idea, I think...re-use Mayport.  Aside from rail connection or lack thereof, it's physically and geographically configured like a smaller LA/Long Beach.

[Tacachale]

"More union jobs" means more sway in Washington that the military? Okay dude.

[simms3]

"More union jobs" means more sway in Washington that the military? Okay dude.

What has the military gotten us with Washington?  And I think it depends on the political climate, but cities with higher numbers of union jobs have demonstrated that they can more easily bring the bacon home...fact.  Manufacturing and industry are roaring back...Jacksonville is either going to position itself or not and you can be sure that a larger port means more union jobs, just like a higher population in general means more unionized teachers and government workers, and more union jobs means more sway with union leadership and a louder voice with Democrats and congressional union sympathizers, who are also coincidentally the elected leadership most likely to fund things like ports, transit, and other infrastructure perks that we all want (they believe in public infrastructure and of course love the fact that construction is unionized).

Defense contractors and US Navy in general have net emigrated from NE FL over last couple decades, or been bought up and taken elsewhere.  Jax has nothing on VA, San Antonio, SD, ME, WA, DC area, CO, or any other major military locations with major military political advantages.  Face up?

[Ocklawaha]

It's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.

Except without rail.

It's obviously never going to happen, but should the city quit forcing itself to rely on the military, which over the past 10-15 years has let the city down.

I'd suggest the military didn't let the city down, it was BRAC, a political commission that closed Cecil. The Navy then decided to try and move ALL of it's VA master jet base employment to Jax and little Johnny went crazy (a short trip for him) and nixed the whole plan. He surmised that everyone knew that 50 jobs loading tires on a semi truck were easily worth 20,000 acres of technical military support jobs. This little corner of the military constitutes the 3rd largest Naval installation cluster in the nation, with nearly $2 billion in economic impact. Despite the dreams of the 'let's just play nice' crowd, the Navy isn't going anywhere soon. Several bases in the north have recently consolidated their functions at NAS JAX/MAYPORT... note the explosion of new development on these bases. We've become the fleet home base for the 4th Fleet Meanwhile the new Marine Corps Logistic Command base opened on Blount Island. For the record, NAS JAX is the only military installation in the nation that was purchased by a citizen funding drive and given to the Navy.

The USS New York, an amphibious transport dock currently deployed in the Middle East — will arrive at Mayport next year. The following year two more ships will arrive: the USS Iwo Jima, an amphibious assault ship, and the USS Fort McHenry, a dock landing ship.

The three ships make up an amphibious ready group, or ARG, now based in Norfolk, Va.

Mabus said in February that the group would arrive no later than 2015. On Friday, though, he announced that the date had been moved up.

Mayport will also see the arrival of eight littoral combat ships by the end of 2019, Mabus said. The first LCS will arrive in 2016. Each of those ships — new Navy combat ships designed to go fast and operate in shallow, near-coastline waters — have about 40 full-time crew members.

U.S. Rep. Ander Crenshaw, R-Fla., said the arrival of the ARG and LCSs points to a bright future at Mayport.

"I think this shows how important Mayport is, in terms of national security," Crenshaw said following the announcement.
"The sooner they bring the ships here, the sooner they can take advantage of this strategic location."

The amphibious ready group's job is to transport Marine Corps infantry, aircraft and supplies into combat around the globe.
"This is one of the most flexible, most lethal, most important things we have in the Navy," Mabus said.

The move will not bring additional Marines into the area, but it will bring about 2,000 sailors and their families, as well as jobs, to the First Coast.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-06-15/story/navy-bring-three-ship-amphibious-group-mayport-early#ixzz2fuckYcxU

[Tacachale]

"More union jobs" means more sway in Washington that the military? Okay dude.

What has the military gotten us with Washington?  And I think it depends on the political climate, but cities with higher numbers of union jobs have demonstrated that they can more easily bring the bacon home...fact.  Manufacturing and industry are roaring back...Jacksonville is either going to position itself or not and you can be sure that a larger port means more union jobs, just like a higher population in general means more unionized teachers and government workers, and more union jobs means more sway with union leadership and a louder voice with Democrats and congressional union sympathizers, who are also coincidentally the elected leadership most likely to fund things like ports, transit, and other infrastructure perks that we all want (they believe in public infrastructure and of course love the fact that construction is unionized).

Defense contractors and US Navy in general have net emigrated from NE FL over last couple decades, or been bought up and taken elsewhere.  Jax has nothing on VA, San Antonio, SD, ME, WA, DC area, CO, or any other major military locations with major military political advantages.  Face up?

Ha, you're right, Simms, we should totally push out our largest single employer for a shot at a "louder voice with Democrats and congressional union sympathizers." Two major Navy bases sure doesn't hold a candle to bringing home some extra federal pork.

[simms3]

This little corner of the military constitutes the 3rd largest Naval installation cluster in the nation, with nearly $2 billion in economic impact. Despite the dreams of the 'let's just play nice' crowd, the Navy isn't going anywhere soon. Several bases in the north have recently consolidated their functions at NAS JAX/MAYPORT... note the explosion of new development on these bases. We've become the fleet home base for the 4th Fleet Meanwhile the new Marine Corps Logistic Command base opened on Blount Island. For the record, NAS JAX is the only military installation in the nation that was purchased by a citizen funding drive and given to the Navy.

I am curious where your source is for 3rd largest naval installation cluster?  A long time ago I actually did a lot of personal research on military installations/clusters, their impacts, employment, etc etc.  I found Jacksonville's local naval presence to be highly overrated.

NAS Oceana and NAS Pensacola > NAS Jax in most respects, though NAS Jax at this point is > than NS Mayport
NB Coronado + NB San Diego, NB Pearl Harbor, NS Norfolk, and NB Kitsap (Seattle) are all > NS Mayport

Don't get me started on Army because some cities like San Antonio are the penultimate army town.

Support services?  Jax has a teeny tiny rickety naval hospital on NAS and that new, small outpatient VA Center in Springfield.  Other cities have full on military hospitals, military academies, intelligence depots, major defense contractors' facilities.  Even museums for crying out loud.  Defense contracting, shipbuilding, intelligence, etc are all relatively nonexistent in Jax (and you'd think with a naval base that there would be some shipbuilding).  In terms of direct employment:

Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton Roads (navy to the utmost max + a little bit of army/marine)
Washington DC (all branches + major defense contracting + intelligence)
San Antonio (army + air force)
Colorado Springs (air force + army + national defense)
San Diego (marine + navy + air force)
Seattle (still a huge naval presence there that surpasses Jax in almost every way + air force)
Honolulu (navy + air force)
And I'd even say Charleston to a degree since relative to its size it has a huge military presence (and now with Boeing there it's a defense contracting operation too)

Anyone can do their own research, but reality is reality.  Jax has always considered itself a military town, and it is, but it hasn't tapped into or been able to truly tap into the bottomless pit of resources that the military can provide.  The other cities all have so many civilian support services and support industries and generally more well known as military towns for this reason.

Washington Navy Yard (16,000 employees) at this point directly employs more people than Mayport (14,000 employees).

According to This September Seattle Times article,

Olson, speaking at a Navy League luncheon, described the complexity and diversity of the Kitsap base. It's the third-largest Navy base in the U.S., with 13,000 active-duty personnel, 13,000 Department of Defense civilian employees and 10,000 contractors, totaling almost as many people as live in Bremerton.

Mayport has a shrinking number of active-duty personnel (14,000 according to a bunch of shady sources), and only 1,054 civilian employees (according to FTU this year), and no contractors.

Bottom line is that other cities have much higher military employment, funding, services, and infrastructure than Jacksonville and it's another case of the bubble syndrom where locals think their shit is so large and important (too big to fail) when that's not the case.  I'd argue that Mayport just isn't that big of a deal...a port there could be a much larger impact to the local economy, and because military funding is limited and related to political power (which Jax clearly has none), then I'd rather be at the mercy of growing global trade markets.

[Ocklawaha]

This little corner of the military constitutes the 3rd largest Naval installation cluster in the nation, with nearly $2 billion in economic impact. Despite the dreams of the 'let's just play nice' crowd, the Navy isn't going anywhere soon. Several bases in the north have recently consolidated their functions at NAS JAX/MAYPORT... note the explosion of new development on these bases. We've become the fleet home base for the 4th Fleet Meanwhile the new Marine Corps Logistic Command base opened on Blount Island. For the record, NAS JAX is the only military installation in the nation that was purchased by a citizen funding drive and given to the Navy.

I am curious where your source is for 3rd largest naval installation cluster?

Only Norfolk and San Diego are larger, and had we allowed or should we allow Cecil, White House, Lee or Lake City to be reactivated as a master jet base, we'd be number one or two. Actually I think LEE FIELD in Green Cove as the best location of all for a relocated master jet base.

My data comes straight from the CNIC (Commander Naval Installation Command) here is a small piece of their new 'Welcome to NAS' package.

A long time ago I actually did a lot of personal research on military installations/clusters, their impacts, employment, etc etc.  I found Jacksonville's local naval presence to be highly overrated.

NAS Oceana and NAS Pensacola > NAS Jax in most respects, though NAS Jax at this point is > than NS Mayport
NB Coronado + NB San Diego, NB Pearl Harbor, NS Norfolk, and NB Kitsap (Seattle) are all > NS Mayport

Don't get me started on Army because some cities like San Antonio are the penultimate army town.

The US Navy organized and operated the 4Th Fleet in 1943 (mid WWII) to control the South Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. It served many amazing missions during and right after the war then was disbanded in 1950, 12 years later the huge reserve fleet base (400+ ships) at Green Cove Springs was closed. In 2008 the 4Th Fleet was reestablished at Mayport Florida, an organizational Fleet which takes command of ships operating within it's area. They have five missions: support for peacekeeping, Humanitarian Assistance, Disaster Relief (HADR), traditional maritime exercises, and counterdrug support operations. Here's a great little video of the boys from Mayport in the waters of my adopted home, Colombia conducting joint exercises. FYI, the simple gold, blue, red flag is Colombia, sometimes with the round naval emblem in it.

US FOURTH FLEET - MAYPORT/COLOMBIA

http://www.youtube.com/v/K0YS6FN25vo?hl=en_US



Let's not go there! When it was REALLY a rickety wooden complex sprawled under an oak forest they saved my life. According to doctors and surgeons saved with about 20 minutes to spare. I was about 7 years old, at home in Ortega and after a couple of days of a 'stomach virus,' my appendix burst. With what must have been 200 people in the waiting room for 'dependents' a doctor (Captain if I recall) called out to my father over the din of the crowd, 'Commander? Is that your boy? Bring him back here right now!' Here's a rendering of the hospital with the new surgical suites added.

And that new, small outpatient VA Center in Springfield.  Other cities have full on military hospitals, military academies, intelligence depots, major defense contractors' facilities. Defense contracting, shipbuilding, intelligence, etc are all relatively nonexistent in Jax (and you'd think with a naval base that there would be some shipbuilding).

The VA isn't military, and actually needs a swift kick from the COJ. We have one of the fastest growing clinics in the nation, we also have the newest... and they 'forgot' to add any extra square footage? cafe/VA PX services (a real joy when your in for fasting labs and there is NOTHING to eat aftwards)? Poor connectivity though it's on a 30 year old planned Skyway route. No surgical-overnight suites. No direct sheltered connection with UF. Shortage of doctors and staff. And recently a positive free-fall in service/attitude.

Contracting? $1,233,384,999 dollars awarded to Duval Defense Contractors in 2011.

BAE bought Atlantic Shipbuilding and immediately started expanding it. They have yards in Norfolk, JAX, Mobile, San Diego, Pearl Harbor

BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Key Developments
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Wins Share of $33,111,543 Federal Contract
Feb 28 13
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC was awarded a share of a $33,111,543 federal contract by the U.S. Army Contracting Command, Fort Eustis, Va., for dry-docking, cleaning, painting, repairs and modifications to the U.S. Army Active and Reserve vessels located on the East and Gulf of Mexico Coasts of United States.

BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Wins $6,357,905 Federal Contract
Aug 17 12
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC won a $6,357,905 federal contract from the U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command, Jacksonville, Fla., for maintenance and repairs for USS Truxtun.

BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Wins $1,010,593.00 Modified Federal Contract
Oct 24 11
Naval Sea Systems Command (Department of the Navy), SUPSHIP Jacksonville, has awarded a $1,010,593.00 modified federal contract on October 14 for maintenance, repair and rebuilding of equipment to BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC.

Embraer to open aircraft assembly plant in January
Posted: September 19, 2013 - 12:04pm
By Roger Bull
Embraer will open its facility at Jacksonville International Airport in January, the company has announced. Then it will start making A-29 Super Tucano light attack support aircraft. The company held the ribbon-cutting ceremony for the 40,000-square-foot assembly hangar in March.

So far, it's filled 40 positions. The company announced it planned to hire a total of 50 people.

The Air Force ordered 20 A-29s from Embraer, with an option of another 20.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/business/2013-09-19/story/embraer-open-aircraft-assembly-plant-january#ixzz2fxUVIFEa

St. Augustine - NORTHROP GRUMAN
Job growth (2010-2012): 12.1%
St. Johns County's vitals are strong. It's the healthiest county in Florida and leads the state in public education. Plus, the weather's gorgeous year-round. No wonder highly educated talent is being wooed there in droves.

Opportunities in clean manufacturing are big here. 2G Cenergy, an advanced clean energy technologies company from Germany, chose St. Augustine for its first manufacturing center in the U.S. The company has already hired 50 employees in the area, and expects to add 70 more in the next four years.

Meanwhile, defense contractor Northrop Grumman plans to build an aircraft-production center that would bring in 400 jobs. MONEY MAGAZINE

As I've shown, we certainly have a full regional military hospital. Military academies are limited to West Point (Army) , Annapolis (NAVY-MARINES), Colorado Springs (Air Force) and New London (Coast Guard). There are a few private and state institutions still around but each branch has but one academy. Intelligence depots? Each military installation has intelligence departments, in the Navy AKA: 'Spooks.' Our own history cuts pretty deep too. Some of our boys helped break the Japanese Naval code prior to the battle of Midway and our Patrol Squadron 10, AKA: The Red Lancers, from NAS is the squadron that located and homed in on the Japanese fleet at Midway... Yeah, we've got intelligence.

That old Weekend Warrior base out at Camp Blanding? From 1940 to 1945, more than 800,000 Soldiers received all or part of their training at Camp Blanding. Today it has be remade into the new JOINT TRAINING CENTER.

Facilities and capabilities: Camp Blanding Joint Training Center serves a wide range of customers, including – but not limited to – all components of the U.S. military, international forces, federal and state law enforcement agencies and others. Camp Blanding is committed to and capable of supporting both federal and state missions. Utilizing state and federal funds, the post continually searches for new ways to improve existing facilities, create new ranges and construct buildings to better support the needs of its customers.

As a result of the increase in training there has been a need for new facilities as well as upgrading excising facilities. Having quality facilities is important to Camp Blanding being able to provide quality training opportunities for these units and individuals.

On base billeting facilities can accommodate 3,000 personnel (i.e., one standard Army brigade consisting of four battalion areas). Each battalion area has company dining facilities, orderly rooms, officer/enlisted barracks, a supply building and a battalion headquarters building.

Boeing's current 737-900ER planes.
Unison is a subsidiary of General Electric and makes electronic components for the two types of engines that will power the new 737s.
Jason Swinny, manager of the Jacksonville plant on Baymeadows Way, said most of the engines are made in Durham, N.C., and Cincinnati. But the turbine ignitions, sensors and harnesses are made at the plant here.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-07-12/story/airlines-order-boeing-737s-good-news-jacksonville-factory#ixzz2fxfIS0Jx

The drones? The fighter repairs? Boeing Jacksonville at Cecil Field.

In terms of direct employment:

Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton Roads (navy to the utmost max + a little bit of army/marine)
Washington DC (all branches + major defense contracting + intelligence)
San Antonio (army + air force)
Colorado Springs (air force + army + national defense)
San Diego (marine + navy + air force)
Seattle (still a huge naval presence there that surpasses Jax in almost every way + air force)
Honolulu (navy + air force)
And I'd even say Charleston to a degree since relative to its size it has a huge military presence (and now with Boeing there it's a defense contracting operation too)

Anyone can do their own research, but reality is reality.  Jax has always considered itself a military town, and it is, but it hasn't tapped into or been able to truly tap into the bottomless pit of resources that the military can provide.  The other cities all have so many civilian support services and support industries and generally more well known as military towns for this reason.

Washington Navy Yard (16,000 employees) at this point directly employs more people than Mayport (14,000 employees).

According to This September Seattle Times article,

Olson, speaking at a Navy League luncheon, described the complexity and diversity of the Kitsap base. It's the third-largest Navy base in the U.S., with 13,000 active-duty personnel, 13,000 Department of Defense civilian employees and 10,000 contractors, totaling almost as many people as live in Bremerton.

I suspect your information is slightly off due to not being 1). LOCAL  2). IN MILITARY SERVICE  3). A VETERAN. Certainly we can do better, but with the present administration in DC, the military is the 'great demon'. I expect a full return once sanity returns, meanwhile just keep saying how well those factories are doing, as I watch freight car loadings fall year after year. JUST SAYIN' 

[Tacachale]

^Ah, the singular pleasure of seeing someone who doesn't know what they're talking about get schooled by someone who does. Good to see you back, Ock.

[simms3]

^^^

1) You are so transparent

1B) You'll take any counterpoint/argument against any statement I make as bible because you have this weird strong dislike for me

1C) You don't have to be a former vet to be able to do quantitative and qualititive research into the current conditions of the military across the country - we're not discussing anything that is over anyone's heads, we are discussing basic numbers that anyone can look up and research, and we are debating points about politics and attempting to provide examples that back up our points.  We aren't talking about payloads and military specific information here.  FYI in case you couldn't read.

1D) I will now take each of Ock's points and make my own counterargument

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

A) In terms of employed personnel on a single naval base, then my research indicates differently.

NAS Jax - 23,000 active-duty + civilian employees (CNIC does not disclose, this came from Wiki)
Mayport - 14,000 active-duty personnel according to a random sketch site since nobody else quotes numbers for Mayport
according to a 2013 FTU article, basing 14 Littoral Combat ships at Mayport by 2020 could bring 1,700 additional employees...I bet more than 1,700 workers built a single one of those ships, so we see naval employment isn't really going up

NAS Pensacola - 16,000 military and 7,400 civilian employees (total 23,400); number directly from CNIC
NAS Oceana - 10,000 military and 1,700 civilian (total 11,700); number directly from CNIC

To summarize San Diego, from navynews.com:

Having military personnel and commands in San Diego is no small gesture -- as the Department of Defense brings about $9.6 billion annually into the county. Much of that money comes from the large U.S. Navy presence in the area. Sixty-nine Navy ships call San Diego home -- nearly one-sixth of the Navy's entire fleet and about one-third of the U.S. Pacific Fleet. Close to 90,000 Navy personnel live in San Diego County with about 87 percent of the military population being male and about 13 percent female. Of the Navy personnel in San Diego, close to 40,000 are married and the total U.S. Navy family member count is 129,000. There are another 57,900 retired military personnel in San Diego County, just over 35,000 Marine Corps personnel and 22,500 Department of Defense civilian personnel. Most of the Navy personnel in San Diego are attached to ashore commands in San Diego.

Again to summarize naval activities in Seattle because CNIC doesn't quote figures, from Seattle Times in 2011 - The navy there claims their base is the 3rd largest...sounds familiar!

Olson, speaking at a Navy League luncheon, described the complexity and diversity of the Kitsap base. It's the third-largest Navy base in the U.S., with 13,000 active-duty personnel, 13,000 Department of Defense civilian employees and 10,000 contractors, totaling almost as many people as live in Bremerton.

According to Militaryinstallations.dod.mil, Honolulu still has the following:

Navy Specific Information:

Navy Active Duty 13,702
Navy Selected Reserve 1,076
Navy Retiree Personnel 4,842
Navy Civilian Personnel 14,183

Air Force Specific Information:

Active Duty Air Force 5,435
DoD and NAF Civilian Personnel 1,977

Total there = 33,803 navy + 7,412 Air Force (Jax has 37,000 navy + 1,054 navy civilians according to an FTU article from 2013 I dug up in earlier post)

San Antonio is also quite a large military center about in the same league as SD and Norfolk.  According to multiple sources represented on SanAntonioEDF.com, direct military employment on bases in city limits is:

San Antonio has four military bases

Randolph AFB - HQ for Air Education and Training Command and the Air Force Military Personnel Center.

Fort Sam Houston (Army) - Brooke Army Medical Center, Institute of Surgical Research, Defense Medical Readiness Training Institute.

Brooks City-Base (the former Brooks Air Force Base) - Human Systems Command, including School of Aerospace Medicine and the Air Force Center for Environmental Excellence.

Lackland Air Force Base - Air Force Basic Training and HQ for Air Force Intelligence Agency.

Total Military and Civilian-Related Employment in San Antonio
Lackland AFB
37,097
Fort Sam Houston
32,000
Randolph AFB
15,492
Brooks City-Base
5,275

TOTAL EMPLOYED
89,864

I could go on quoting and finding numbers (do I really need to dig into Norfolk area?), but when it comes to direct base employment, Jacksonville just doesn't fly with the really big boys and compares to lots of other "military cities" such as Honolulu, Seattle, Colorado Springs, DC, Jacksonville NC, Pensacola, Charleston, etc etc.
_________________________________________________________________________________


Regarding Defense spending (contracts for manufacture, shipbuilding, research, etc)...your examples are as follows:

1) $1.2B in Jax ($13.3B in San Antonio as a comparable)

2) BAE Systems Southeast Shipyard Mayport - ok, you may be a military vet but I'm pretty familiar with this shipyard, having grown up practically down the street from the former owner who sold to BAE (family friends) and I've probably boated past at least 50-75 times, docked on more than one occasion.  Nobody would take offense at the reality that it is a repair yard mainly for yachts and large commercial boats, with an occasional repair/retrofit contract for a small naval ship.  It doesn't register on the scale of "shipyard" in the classical sense, but yes, I would love to be sitting as high as George Gibbs right now (the former owner who made out very handsomely in the sale).

3) Embraer to open aircraft assembly plant in Jan-14

-So?  The numbers aren't significant - we're talking a very small plane, likely 20 with option for 20 more (small numbers), employing 50 total (big whoop), and construction of 40,000 SF hangar (fits the small size planes ok I suppose)

4) Northrop Grumman "plans" to open a facility that would employ 400 - ok, well I'll wait until it happens.


I don't think anyone anywhere aside from maybe some hometown heros are claiming Jacksonville is a hotbed of DoD contracts, defense research, manufacturing of any kind, etc etc.  Let's be a little realistic here.  In terms of shipbuilding alone, there are plenty of large shipyards in the US that actually build large ships for private and DoD (Norfolk, SD, Bremerton, Maine, etc)

____________________________________________________________________________________




The whole argument here is really not whether Jax is a major military operation or not.  Lake originally made the point that Mayport could be converted to a commercial shipping terminal/port.  I agreed and expounded on that, firmly believing it could happen (though we all know it won't).  I did make the point that Mayport was no longer the power base it once was (it doesn't even homebase any carriers - there are multiple naval bases on both coasts that do, not just Norfolk...SD, Honolulu, and Bremerton in Seattle all do).  I think Mayport is no longer highest and best use.  I don't believe we should shut down NAS - I separate that from Mayport.  But I also don't think Jax is the level of military town some locals may think it to be when it doesn't take much research, discussion, travel etc to learn that there are a host of cities with far more impactful military/DoD presences (not just in terms of bases, but contract facilities as by Northrop, Boeing, etc, and in terms of support and alternative things like schools, hospitals, etc).

Regarding the VA Center, that was my subtle way of saying that despite the large vet population in Jax, which the VA is meant to serve, the facilities are negligible when compared to most other city VAs in the US (and lots of these cities have large naval/army hospitals, too...much larger than what Jax has...usually open to civilians too).

[thelakelander]

This doesn't sound positive for dredging advocates:

Deep Water Now campaign will have to wait until later for congressional authorization of dredging Jacksonville's ship channel

A big push for deeper water at Jacksonville's port fell short Tuesday night in the U.S. House of Representatives.
The House Rules Committee voted against allowing the full House to consider an amendment offered by U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, that would have authorized a future 47-foot ship channel in Jacksonville.

The rejection means when the full House begins debate Wednesday on the Water Resources Development Act, there will be no chance of adding the deepened ship channel to the massive bill.

"We reached out to everyone we could," said Nick Martinelli, legislative affairs director for Brown. "We had a great effort."

JaxPort will probably have to wait at least two years to have another shot at getting authorization in a Water Resources Development Act.. But it could be even longer. Congress used to bring up water bills on a two-year timetable, but this water bill would be the first one since 2007.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-10-22/story/deep-water-now-campaign-will-have-wait-until-later-congressional#ixzz2iXksjJex

[thelakelander]

Oh, and then there's this:

Shipping line mega alliance has no plans to call on Jaxport

The Port of Jacksonville doesn't even come in for a mention in the list of service routes recently unveiled by an alliance of the world's top three container shipping companies.

The P3 Network — an alliance of Maersk Line, CMA CGM and Mediterranean Shipping Co. — will operate 27 service loops around the world, according to information released by Mediterranean Shipping.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/10/22/jacksonville-left-out-p3-mega-alliance.html

http://www.mscgva.ch/news/library/p3_service_presentation.pdf