Downtown Revitalization: Raleigh, Seven Years Later

[simms3]

I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville.

Calm down with using these dramatic phrases like "much more well known". Yeah, it's a capital, but it's not DC for godsakes. There is something that's called the NFL that will automatically make Jax more well known than Raleigh, not to mention the Fortune 500s, just keeping it real. Hell, most probably don't even know that the Carolina Hurricanes of the NHL play there. Charlotte vastly overshadows Raleigh in the state. Jax is on the Eastern seaboard with highways that goes through damn near all of the largest cities in this country I-10 and I-95; Raleigh is a landlocked city with I-40 going through. 

I'm not even saying that Raleigh isn't doing alot of good things there compared to Jax right now, because it seems like a pretty underrated city, but lets keep things into perspective, and not act as if Raleigh is some 'roll right off the tongue' world class mecca....

Keep in mind that I-95 is about 25 miles (if that) from the Raleigh city limits and I-85, which is much more developed than 1-95, is about 20 or less miles away from Raleigh proper.  So for all intents and purposes they have three interstates.   

Even though it is eclipsed by Charlotte in most respects, In terms of economic development and reputation, Raleigh far exceeds JAX. 

I'm pretty calm I-10east.  But the spheres of people I have met outside of Jacksonville are quite familiar with Raleigh and less so with Jax.  Jax has the Jaguars, but it doesn't mean people necessarily know much about the city of Jax or where in FL it is situated when most people really truly only know about Orlando and Miami and then only maybe where those cities are in relation to the state's geography.

Raleigh has the best overall universities in the south and several of the best in the country, which means that much more "business" is naturally happening in Raleigh than in Jacksonville and the generally educated populace is likely to be more familiar with Raleigh as quite a few people spent at least 4 years of their life there .  RTP itself is generally unparalleled in the world for much of the R&D that is conducted there and plenty more global 500 firms have presence in Raleigh than NEFL.  RDU has direct flights to far more domestic destinations than JIA, and internationally goes nonstop daily to Toronto and London.  It doesn't hurt that before the current Republican crisis in NC that the state was the most progressive and business friendly in the south, and Raleigh was the seat of the state.

But, as I said, I personally can't stand Raleigh.  Lots of young professionals there, but they aren't there for quality of life.  They are there on assignment for 12-24-36 months working for some big firm, or they found entry job there after graduating from Duke, UNC, NC State, or the countless other highly ranked universities in NC that feed that state's economy (Wake Forest, Davidson, UNC Charlotte, UNC Wilmington, etc etc).  Raleigh is also a preferred destination for NE transplants.  So is Charlotte.  Both even moreso than FL.  Of my college fraternity of 60 or so active brothers, I knew of 4 off the top of my head whose parents moved from CT or MA down to Raleigh or Charlotte, and another whose parents moved from Pittsburgh, during my 4 years in college.  Along with Charlotte, Raleigh's a city that's very well known for a variety of reasons, which is why it's one of the top 5 fastest growing cities/metros in the country for the past 2 decades.  Last year it was the #1 multifamily investment market in the country with REITs and institutional groups leading the charge, along with a slew of offshore capital sources from AsiaPac and EMEA countries.  Jacksonville can't stake that claim and likely never will in our lifetimes.

Bottom line is that aside from the fact that Raleigh is much more quickly transforming than Jax and building up entire infill neighborhoods like we only wish we could, I wouldn't judge Raleigh by its downtown.  It pulls its weight in the middle of Raleigh and Durham with RTP and nearby RDU and the many master-planned god-awful communities like Brier Creek or Stonewater, and while NC State is near DT Raleigh, both Duke and Chapel Hill are on the other side of Durham.  DT Durham itself in my opinion is the Triangle's gem.

[I-10east]

^^^Yup, people can never seem to know where Jax is located on the end of a major interstate, or know anything about the city itself, but RALEIGH, aw man it sticks out like the Florida Keys, as it's VERY easy the find, and it's world renowned; The old 'people don't know where it is located' argument can be VERY subjective to any individual, I never bought that MJ cliche. We live in a GPS society anyway; Rarely do I have to bust out the old Rand McNally map anymore.

I see these 'top 10 lists' all of the time, and I take them with a grain of salt; Often Jax gets graded high on similar lists, and of course the local negative nannies b*tch and moan saying that the list isn't accurate. To be honest, the only thing that I knew about Raleigh (subjective to me) was that it's the state capital, and the Carolina Hurricanes play there; I would be considered like a Raleigh expert to all of the people I know with that lil info. Jax has nearby attractions (like St Augustine etc) that fickle locals disregard saying that it's 'too far' but when another city has something 60 miles outta the radius, it's as if it was all in the center of downtown Raleigh (spread out colleges, hospitals, attractions, highways etc). Thanks for the info though Simms. 

[krazeeboi]

I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville.

Calm down with using these dramatic phrases like "much more well known". Yeah, it's a capital, but it's not DC for godsakes. There is something that's called the NFL that will automatically make Jax more well known than Raleigh, not to mention the Fortune 500s, just keeping it real. Hell, most probably don't even know that the Carolina Hurricanes of the NHL play there. Charlotte vastly overshadows Raleigh in the state. Jax is on the Eastern seaboard with highways that goes through damn near all of the largest cities in this country I-10 and I-95; Raleigh is a landlocked city with I-40 going through. 

I'm not even saying that Raleigh isn't doing alot of good things there compared to Jax right now, because it seems like a pretty underrated city, but lets keep things into perspective, and not act as if Raleigh is some 'roll right off the tongue' world class mecca....

Charlotte of course is the biggest city and metro in the state, but I wouldn't say that it "vastly overshadows" Raleigh. Raleigh has been growing at a slightly faster rate and Wake County (Raleigh) is on the verge of overtaking Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) in population. And when it comes to higher ed, Raleigh definitely shines brighter. Charlotte has a much larger corporate presence/profile, but Raleigh/the Triangle gets the lion's share of the tech-oriented jobs which tend to pay a little more. So I'd say Charlotte has a larger profile, but not by quite as much as you're making it out to be.

Compared to Jacksonville, I'd say Raleigh has the higher profile nationally because it's strongly associated with the area universities and RTP, plus it's been among the fastest-growing metro areas in the country for 2-3 decades now. I don't think Jacksonville has as strong of an association with anything industrial or cultural, except perhaps for the Navy.

[I-10east]

PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....

[krazeeboi]

PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....

This is a strawman.

You know it's quite possible for a city to be performing a bit better than Jacksonville and not be world class. Cities like Atlanta and Houston, which are clearly heads and shoulders above Jacksonville, would also be out of place among the likes of Paris, Tokyo, and NYC.

In 2007, Jacksonville's GDP ($60.264 billion) was almost $9 billion more than Raleigh's ($51.627 billion). In a mere four years, Raleigh was able to close that gap by about $7 billion ($58.746 billion) as Jacksonville's GDP remained virtually static ($60.725 billion). And this is just Raleigh's MSA by itself, not including the rest of the Triangle (Durham [which is home to the vast majority of RTP], Chapel Hill).

[I-10east]

PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....

This is a strawman.

For me to be a 'strawman' I have to misrepresent what you spoke on, but I was being sarcastic; If you're gonna use a dumb cliche, atleast use it in it's proper context.

Raleigh's a cute lil' growing city, but I'm not buying this overhyping of that city. None of yall NEVER talked about Raleigh until now. Surrounding points of interest outside of a city doesn't make a city; That's just like saying Ft Lauderdale is some first rate city, just because it's by Miami. I don't even see Raliegh listed on the map on national weather forecasts. Sorry Raleigh, we don't believe you, you need more people.

[vicupstate]

PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....

This is a strawman.

I don't even see Raliegh listed on the map on national weather forecasts. Sorry Raleigh, we don't believe you, you need more people.

FYI, Wake County already has more people than Duval County.

[thelakelander]

Regarding Ft. Lauderdale, Broward already has more than twice as many people residing in it as Duval.

[I-10east]

^^^I like how yall cherry pick some haphazard info that I didn't even mention (like particular counties' population) and turn it back against Jax (in true MJ fashion). Wow, freaking Broward County (which has over two dozen cities) and Wake County (which has Raleigh, Durham, Cary, and Chapel Hill) has more people than Duval!! No way, wow impressive....

[simms3]

^^^I like how yall cherry pick some haphazard info that I didn't even mention (like particular counties' population) and turn it back against Jax (in true MJ fashion). Wow, freaking Broward County (which has over two dozen cities) and Wake County (which has Raleigh, Durham, Cary, and Chapel Hill) has more people than Duval!! No way, wow impressive....

Raleigh-Cary is Wake.  Durham is Durham County.  Chapel Hill is Orange County.  Overall, the Triangle has about 2 million people and its largest four central counties alone are:

Wake - 952,151 people in 832 sq mi (1,144 ppsm)
Durham - 279,671 people in 290 sq mi (964 ppsm)
Johnston - 168,878 people in 792 sq mi (213 ppsm)
Orange - 133,801 people in 295 sq mi (454 ppsm)

TOTAL - 1,534,501 people in 2,209 sq mi (695 ppsm)

Contrast with Jax:

Duval - 879,602 people in 774 sq mi (1,136 ppsm)
St. Johns - 202,188 people in 609 sq mi (332 ppsm)
Clay - 194,345 people in 601 sq mi (323 ppsm)
Nassau - 74,629 people in 652 sq mi (114 ppsm)

TOTAL - 1,350,764 people in 2,636 sq mi (512 ppsm)


So, I guess my argument could indicate that by all accounts Raleigh should be ahead of Jax in most things, but my argument also indicates that Raleigh is materially a larger city than Jax and is not only in a different league in terms of basically everything less having an NFL team or a beach, it is in a different league in terms of population too.

Jax feels more urban and dense in its core and Duval feels larger than Wake County, but NE FL population is small and has lots of sparsities and drop offs.  Raleigh has pine forests within view of its downtown, but overall the city and metro area are technically denser than Jax and the population is built up more densely over more area.  On a much larger scale Atlanta is this way.  Atlanta is 2,000-3,000 ppsm for thousands of square miles and aside from a few dense pockets in the city is a relatively uniformly built out place.  Atlanta can feel much larger than it is basically due to its endless skylines and super urban sprawl for many miles in all directions.  The traffic and big city amenities and LAesq sprawl give it a "larger" feel than SF sometimes, which can be walked across in just a couple hours and you've basically seen the whole city.  However, at street level, an SF on a Friday afternoon, aka now, can feel much more like a Manhattan than almost any other American city, a fast-paced city feel you'll never experience in LA, Atlanta, Houston, or Dallas. 

Fulton County - 977,773 people in 529 sq mi (1,848 ppsm)
Gwinnett County - 842,046 people in 433 sq mi (1,945 ppsm)
Cobb County - 707,442 people in 340 sq mi (2,081 ppsm)
Dekalb County - 707,089 people in 268 sq mi (2,638 ppsm)

TOTAL - 3,234,350 people in 1,570 sq mi (2,060 ppsm)

Jax can barely hold onto 2,000-3,000 ppsm for just a hundred square miles and has no truly dense areas anywhere.  So while to me it can feel larger than Raleigh on a quick drive through, its economy is smaller, its population is smaller, its pull and reputation is smaller, and its growth is certainly a lot smaller.  Jax neither offers sheer size like Atlanta (and Raleigh and Charlotte are trending towards an Atlanta) nor does it offer a walkable city culture that a Charleston, Miami Beach, New Orleans, or DC offer.

Raleigh is a larger city, plain and simple.

[thelakelander]

Basically, Jax has a larger historic urban core because it was much larger than Raleigh before WWII. I also think being a waterfront city has something to do with it.

[I-10east]

From what I understand Simms, some parts of Durham are in Wake County, although the majority is in Durham County. So, the largest successful cities are all about people per square mile, news to me....FWIW, Jax has a larger city, and metro population than Raleigh; Jax has no CSA, and Raleigh has a big one with a population that's larger than Duval County; CSA's are more about what a combined multi-county has in population, not necessarily what Raleigh has individually in population. So I'll keep that in mind; Cram a bunch of people together (ppsm) = success; It sure worked out for the favelas down there in Rio.

[fsquid]

I would guess that Raleigh also has a much higher per capita income, more college graduates, and lower unemployment than JAX

[tufsu1]

It sure worked out for the favelas down there in Rio.

have you followed what's going on in Brazil lately?  Their economy is booming and Rio is hosting the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016.  Sounds like a pretty important world city to me.

[I-10east]

ROME BEIJING RALEIGH LOS ANGELES MADRID TORONTO HONG KONG....