Problems with business

[Uncle Marx]

What's the point again?  That business owners aren't supposed to make money?  That his motivational skills are lacking?  or WTF is the tall skinny dude walking around asking questions?

Ooohhhh!!!!  Shiny....

where do you het the idea that he isnt  supposed to make any morey at all?

Not at all.  Is there a min/max that an owner's supposed to make?

The more pertinent question is, why after his capitalist investment has been paid, is he still the owner?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

So in the cartoon what's stopping the worker from going out and producing this product on his own?

The privatized means of production are generally owned by a few.

So you're saying that the employee can or can't produce the products on his own?

In a feudal society, the answer to your question would be not much. In a capitalist society, if the workers try to take over the productive operation...well we all know which side the cops will be on.

Take over?  Like storming the factory?  Sure.

What if they (the employees) were to get together, form a co-op, purchase a lot and building and machinery next door and then produce the same product only to sell it at a lower price?  Sounds like competition to me.  The cops don't need to be involved.

[Uncle Marx]

So in the cartoon what's stopping the worker from going out and producing this product on his own?

Start up capital most likely. A Mfg business is not cheap to get of the ground.

Cheshire is also right! Not to mention if the worker starts up the business again using 'start up capital' and reproduces the whole process, we again get the cartoon. Just this time the former worker is the man in the suit.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

What's the point again?  That business owners aren't supposed to make money?  That his motivational skills are lacking?  or WTF is the tall skinny dude walking around asking questions?

Ooohhhh!!!!  Shiny....

where do you het the idea that he isnt  supposed to make any morey at all?

Not at all.  Is there a min/max that an owner's supposed to make?

The more pertinent question is, why after his capitalist investment has been paid, is he still the owner?

Because he can make $35/day to tell people to work faster.

[Uncle Marx]

Non-Redneck, I'm new to the forum, so I won't quote you, since I'm afraid I'll butcher the layout.

Question 1:So you're saying that the employee can or can't produce the products on his own?

Except for a basic one sided relationship with nature (e.g., crafting a bow from a tree, alone), production of goods and services is almost always a social process. Almost nothing we consume, and produce, is done alone. Even if I were to try to build a shack on my own, it's doubtful I also made the hammer, nails, wood, etc., or that the idea of a shack came to me without some form of education, upbringing, etc.

Question 2: General experience is that the competitor is the one that can afford to momentarily lower the price because they are operating with a large surplus and have a larger credit line to the bank. Their interest is thus to put the co-op out of business as quickly as possible. But in general, if that competition were not to exist, I would say nothing is stopping them, and the cartoon no longer makes sense in that context.

[Uncle Marx]

Because he can make $35/day to tell people to work faster.

Or they could make $50 a day without his harassment. One seems prima facie superior.

Or even $40 a day, and enjoy a longer lunch, vacation, and a democratically negotiated working contract.

After all, real democracy is the road to socialism.

[acme54321]

So do tell....  What's the point of this little story?

[Uncle Marx]

What's the point again?  That business owners aren't supposed to make money?  That his motivational skills are lacking?  or WTF is the tall skinny dude walking around asking questions?

Ooohhhh!!!!  Shiny....

If you struggle to understand the point of a generalized cartoon, I don't think a longer and more detailed elaboration will be to your benefit at this time.

[BridgeTroll]

I want to thank you Uncle Marx... for pointing out the beuty of the political cartoon.  The cartoonists ablity to in a simple yet complex manner to provoke thought.  From precolonial times through the present it remains an american masterpiece.  We have quite a collection...

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2625.0.html

[Uncle Marx]

I'm off to work and class comrades. I hope to continue this discussion in the future!

[zedsdead]

I thought you had done away with class, Tovarich.....

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Because he can make $35/day to tell people to work faster.

Or they could make $50 a day without his harassment. One seems prima facie superior.

Yes.  But you're making too many assumptions. 

First, they can't make $50/day immediately, because there seems to be that little bit about starting capital that they'll have to invest or borrow, but either way, they will have to pay out before making the full profit.  By the time they do become profitable, there's always the chance that competitions moves in next door and drastically changes the original dynamic.

Or even $40 a day, and enjoy a longer lunch, vacation, and a democratically negotiated working contract.

Now you're just BSisg with life-work balance that doesn't take into account any outside parameters.  The cartoon doesn't explore this at all and is only assuming our personal value of monies.  Maybe the worker, at $15/day, is living in the lap of luxury and doesn't need or want for any more. 

After all, real democracy is the road to socialism.

Only if that's what the majority wants. 

BTW, highlight what you want to quote and then click on the 'quote bubble' above the sad face.

[Uncle Marx]

Response 1.
The same assumptions apply to the cartoon, of course there is start up capital in both cases. Nevertheless I agree with you that in a capitalistic market, co-ops will always be facing stronger and already developed competition that has every interest in ensuring they don't succeed. Obviously the cartoon says nothing about this, and we are having a discussion outside the bounds of said cartoon.

Response 2.
I'm not BSing, I'm addressing issues outside the cartoon, which seems to be your interest. In general, the standard of living in the US is quite poor. In general global analysis, when juxtaposed to other major industrial countries, US workers have the least vacation, lowest rates of pay, poorer schooling, less access to healthcare.

I think if workers had a more democratic say in what was going on in the workplace, some of these would definitely be aleviated.

Response 3.
US citizens love democracy, for the most part.

[JeffreyS]

I'm a labor guy but this is ridiculous. I own a business first of all few times in history has the bottom line (Profit) been 70% or the startup costs not taken years and a fair amount of risk to pay back and likely takes multiple investment cycles before a true ROI is reached.  You can support labor having good conditions and fair pay without trying to spin that the Capitalist is the beneficiary of a one way relationship.

[JeffreyS]

And if you look at it from the cartoons point of the owner is doing the heavy lifting as actually selling the products is the most important step in business. If you can sell there is something out there to sell but just be able to produce products even if they are useful does not involve taking in money.