Historic Districts: What's the point?

[sheclown]

1.)  CLEARLY does not protect the properties

2.)  HINDERS improvements of all kinds and makes it difficult to work on properties

3.)  Tedious layers of bureaucracy are subjective and arbitrary

4.)  Puts power into the hands of an artificial gentry class which determines who opens a business, lives in a house, builds an addition...parks a car., replaces a window.

5.)  Costs the city tons of money which could be spent actually....on preservation.

[Apache]

You get a cool ornamental plaque to put on the front of your house

[thelakelander]

They actually work out pretty well in most cities that value preservation.  Locally, I think the ultimate problem is that overall, we are a community that does not. 

[sheclown]

How has Springfield benefited from its designation as an historic district? 

How has Jacksonville benefited from the cost expended to make and maintain it as an historic district?

I think it is time for Jacksonville to ask itself some tough questions.

[thelakelander]

Another question to consider is what's the difference in benefit between Riverside/Avondale and Springfield since their original destinations?  Since Riverside/Avondale never fell as far as or was redlined like Springfield, it would be good to Springfield with other similar historic district environments throughout the state and in peer cities across the US. To ultimately get a wholesale perspective of local situation, I think it's probably just as important to look at results/processes outside of our city limits.  This could be a situation where the historic designation is not the issue. Instead, it could be us.

[Tacachale]

Historic designation has worked as well for Riverside and Avondale as anywhere in the country. I'd imagine the difference between that and Springfield are the conditions of the neighborhood at and before the time they received the designation, the people involved, and their relationship with the local government.

[JayBird]

Though I respect and support those fighting for historic preservation I have not had involvement in that arena. I do however follow such posts here and admire those that have the passion to take on such tasks. As someone from the outside looking in, when I moved to Springfield in 2002 from Ft Hood, Texas I was told (and still hear it today) that Springfield is plagued by crack and alcoholism, riverside is run by old money. Whether or not these statements are true or just urban myth, that may play a part in how others (especially outsiders) view the community. People seem to hold what others say as gospel until they see the area themselves. Perhaps Historic Springfield just needs a marketing makeover to get it back on track.

In the northeast historic districts are a wonderful accomplishment for a neighborhood to achieve. They have a better economy do to sightseers and higher ROI from a more healthy sales market. From what I've read here on MJ, it would appear that past leadership had derailed previous efforts and no one new has picked up the torch.

[sheclown]

Historic designation has worked as well for Riverside and Avondale as anywhere in the country. I'd imagine the difference between that and Springfield are (1)the conditions of the neighborhood at and before the time they received the designation, (2) the people involved, and (3) their relationship with the local government.

Thanks for letting me number them!

1.) Riverside was fairly sketchy when preservation attempts began.  Matter of fact, that is probably a common theme throughout preservation.  The beginnings often happen in the middle of blight.

2.) The people involved.  Certainly the corruption during the reign of SRG didn't help the neighborhood and the policies enacted during this time period are in effect still.  I suppose what was so harmful about this was the fact that the historic preservation commission didn't stop to look at what was happening with these policies.  They didn't ask why they were approving demolitions, often on a monthly basis, without even ...say...taking a drive through Springfield.  Without any checks or balances, the "people involved" had their way with the district, that is for sure.

3.) The relationship with the local government -- once the dollars for Gaffney dried up, so did his interest in the neighborhood.  This move has actually been good for preservation.  Or perhaps neutral.

While this helps to understand the empty lots, it doesn't explain the empty store fronts.  I would point the finger at the overlay for that.  It seems to empower the worst in people, declaring things like car washes and thrift stores, non-conforming, while holding out for those conforming uses which have little use for abandoned strips of commerce.

[sheclown]

Though I respect and support those fighting for historic preservation I have not had involvement in that arena. I do however follow such posts here and admire those that have the passion to take on such tasks. As someone from the outside looking in, when I moved to Springfield in 2002 from Ft Hood, Texas I was told (and still hear it today) that Springfield is plagued by crack and alcoholism, riverside is run by old money. Whether or not these statements are true or just urban myth, that may play a part in how others (especially outsiders) view the community. People seem to hold what others say as gospel until they see the area themselves. Perhaps Historic Springfield just needs a marketing makeover to get it back on track.

In the northeast historic districts are a wonderful accomplishment for a neighborhood to achieve. They have a better economy do to sightseers and higher ROI from a more healthy sales market. From what I've read here on MJ, it would appear that past leadership had derailed previous efforts and no one new has picked up the torch.

That is what John Wells is trying to do with the cruise.

[mtraininjax]

If Springfield were on the river, any part of it, the values of the properties would be much higher. I know Springfield considers itself a sprawling area, but to me, REAL Springfield is Main to 1st, to the creek and then to 8th Street. I don't consider the East Springfield area as real Springfield. The homes on Laura Street are incredible, to me at least. Put those on the water, you have serious rise in property value.

Riverside and Avondale have been able to hold their values, because you cannot tear it down. Only Kim at Code Enforcement can sign that paper. You can't create the McMansion, just cause you want to do so, this hurts the values in San Marco and Ortega, where they may call themselves a historic area, but they do not have the designation from the City to tear down. Building back up, they have the overlay to corral what they can create, but once its down, its over.

Look at the property values of Riverside, Avondale, Springfield, Ortega, San Marco. Four of these five are located by the water,  and there is only so much river access. Springfield would be much more valuable on the river.

[sheclown]

Interesting points.

What are the expectations of naming a district" historic?"  What do we want as an outcome? 

[JaxUnicorn]

Riverside and Avondale have been able to hold their values, because you cannot tear it down. Only Kim at Code Enforcement can sign that paper. You can't create the McMansion, just cause you want to do so, this hurts the values in San Marco and Ortega, where they may call themselves a historic area, but they do not have the designation from the City to tear down. Building back up, they have the overlay to corral what they can create, but once its down, its over.

Look at the highlighted sentence above.  Therein lies a big part of our problem in Springfield.  WHY is it that Code Enforcement is so quick to "sign that paper" in Springfield and not in other areas?  And as to your points on values being higher if Springfield were on the river, that's true of any type of property, historic or not. 

Springfield contains some of the OLDEST structures in the City of Jacksonville.  Did we have problem with crime and drugs at some point?  Yes, as did other areas.  Is there still a problem in Springfield with crime and drugs?  Not any more than any other area of town.

People need to stop saying negative things about Springfield - they obviously have absolutely no first hand knowledge of our gem of a district.

[JaxByDefault]

Well, my old neighborhood before SPR had fallen as far as Springfield (but with FAR, FAR fewer demolitions). The neighborhood had a mix of small and large (the smaller were smaller and the large larger than SPR), grand and simple, perfectly preserved with every piece in tact and husks of historics with new guts, etc. The main differences I see in terms of why SPR is fairing worse are 1) a tedious layer-cake of city and neighborhood bureaucracy instead of streamlined process, 2) the presence of an overarching neighborhood organization that had design review power (that rested with the ONE city planning and permitting office in Knoxville that one had to deal with) and the neighborhood org was volunteer and more helpful, 3) the commercial  corridor was full of local businesses (from cute retail to junk stores, car dealerships to urban organic co-ops)  and city offered incentives for small and local businesses, 4) no one had to fight the city -- the Knoxville downtown revitalization plan needed 4th & Gill and Old North Knoxville historic districts to turn around to make downtown more successful as it was the closest neighborhood to the Old City district that wasn't dominated by the University, 5) the neighborhood attracted a ton of professor families from the University but was also a rental haven for grad/professional students. 6) There were small houses (<1500 sq. ft) in the neighborhood, too. Their residents were welcomed, and small infill was encouraged. 7) The guidelines for renovation were looser in some places, stricter in others, but overall fairer, easier to comply with, and economically more feasible for most owners. For example, if you wanted to dress up your vernacular to look more like a Key West it was allowed, so long as you mirrored other styles in the neighborhood. You could remove a second entry door on a former duplex conversion. You could add solar panels without approval. I don't know of one case where someone was vilified for in the 'hood for a certain front door, column replacement, or for renovating a burned-out shell with newer materials. Slow restorations and renovations were par for course and tolerated. 8 ) The desire to build "reproduction" houses instead of allowing modern in-fill did not exist as a policy. Infill architecture was more fluid; it reflected individual taste but had to match neighborhood scale and features (such as porches). There were a couple great modern homes and some cool modern renovations inside historic shells.

I'd say overall, until about 5-10 years ago, most Knoxville residents had the same negative perceptions of ONK that people here have about SPR.

Nutshell: The city doesn't care; the bureaucracy makes things too hard. The neighborhood isn't as neighborly (but this has improved in the last few years.) There aren't oodles of high-salary great jobs for professionals and a more vibrant downtown nearby. 

ONK and 4th and Gill also billed themselves as cool. We basically ran ourselves ragged trying to attract hipsters and get the city (and one nearby church) to allow bars on the Central St./Broadway corridor. 

[Dog Walker]

riverside is run by old money.

About 40% of the people living in Riverside are RENTERS who are living in some of the cool, small apartment houses or the neat bungalows that line the streets.  There is very little old or for that matter new money in Riverside except in a few pockets.

You were meaning Avondale maybe?

[mtraininjax]

And as to your points on values being higher if Springfield were on the river, that's true of any type of property, historic or not. 

But we're talking about the HISTORIC districts here in Jacksonville. Of all of them, Springfield has no river access, so I'd say that is a huge factor in whether or not people care. I know there are people in Springfield who care about the neighborhood, but go into Riverside and Avondale and see how many boarded up homes there are there and compare it to Springfield. Why are homes boarded up in Springfield? Fix the boarded up issues and that is a start.

People need to stop saying negative things about Springfield - they obviously have absolutely no first hand knowledge of our gem of a district.

Fix the boarded up homes and you will stop being the butt of all the jokes and they will move their jokes onto Paxon.