Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[NotNow]

I said "make money".  I'm not talking about those that already have it.  And I'm not talking about 'fabulous wealth".  I'm talking about an increasing net worth that allows for a good life and a reasonable retirement.  The poverty stricken..don't have to be.

Some one has to be, notnow.  the system is based on a 15% poverty level or below constant.  Until we eliminate human labor, you have to have cheap labor for it to work the way it does now.

Hence illegal immigration, poverty zones and the prison industry.

"The system"?  What is your source?  I would postulate that such activity is because of the poverty, rather than in support of it.  Illegal immigration undercuts wages in this country in some areas.  (Meatpacking as an example.)  I'm not sure what "poverty zones" you are speaking of...and prisons...are not an industry.  They are a drag on society that should be greatly reformed into something completely different for most prisoners.  I am sure that we will disagree on this. 

No one is "doomed" to poverty.  There is no law saying any one individual or group cannot get an education, training, and a job.  What stops them?  That is where our efforts need to be focused.  Eradicate what stops people from accomplishing success.  Be brave enough to expect success.

[NotNow]

I am pretty familiar with prisons, or at least the concept.   Perhaps you misunderstand.  My statement is meant to emphasize that "prison" cannot be a useful industry.  Locking up human potential is very wasteful, no matter how many guards you employ. 

I know why the incarceration rate is rising.  And we can do a lot locally to reduce that, while changing our system of punishment. 

but the discussion is about poverty and its relationship with crime...don't forget.

[NotNow]

Are you really convinced that 15% of the population must live in poverty?

[NotNow]

Again, if you would simply stick to exchanging facts and ideas rather than speaking down to people, some might actually consider some of your points. 

As for prison industry, I can point you to the Florida State Prison PRIDE site:

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/annual/9596/pride.html

And yes, Arizona's imigration laws were about border security.  The controversial part was allowing state and local officers to enforce federal immigration laws.   Immigration violators are returned to their home country. 

Once again, you are becoming argumentative without accurate information.

Now, last chance for a real exchange of information, are you ready to discuss the original subject, which is economic status and its effect on crime?

[strider]

Not sure why everyone is so upset with the Stand Your Ground Law. It was not applicable in this case and it disproportionately BENEFITS black suspects more than white suspects in Florida.

Why Stand Your Ground Is Central To George Zimmerman's Case After All

By Nicole Flatow on Jul 15, 2013 at 1:59 pm (found on Think Progress)

The Stand Your Ground law that gained notoriety in the wake of Trayvon Martin's shooting became central to the case again last week, when written instructions advised the jury that found shooter George Zimmerman not guilty to take the law's central provision into account.

The law that authorizes the use of unfettered deadly force with no "duty to retreat" sparked national outcry last year when police cited the statute as grounds for not arresting George Zimmerman for more than a month. Since then, reports and studies have shown that similar laws on the books in at least 21 states are discriminatory, applied arbitrarily, and associated with a higher rate of homicides. But the law faded from center stage after police pursued arrest of Zimmerman 44 days later, and Zimmerman's lawyers opted not to specifically raise the law as a defense during trial. Had the lawyers moved to formally raise Stand Your Ground as a defense, the judge would have held a hearing devoted to whether the law immunized Zimmerman from criminal liability, and the case might have ended without ever going to a jury.

Zimmerman's lawyer chose instead to go to trial, once again declining to specifically raise "Stand Your Ground" as a defense and keeping the law out of the trial. But the principle's irrelevance ended the moment the jury received their instructions for deciding the case.

As Ta-Nehisi Coates reveals, the written instructions that sat with the jurors as they deliberated made very clear that under Florida law, a shooter has a right to stand his ground:

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in anyplace where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Since Zimmerman's lawyers opted not to invoke Stand Your Ground as a defense, observers have characterized this case as a regular old "self-defense" case, rather than a "Stand Your Ground" case. But what these jury instructions make clear is that, in Florida, there is no longer an effective distinction. Stand Your Ground is the state's self-defense law, whether or not a defendant opts to hold a hearing specifically on the question. In fact, this section on the "Justifiable Use of Deadly Force" is the only place in all 27 pages of jury instructions in which the phrase "self-defense" is used.

And self-defense now means shooters may stand their ground not just to prevent death or great bodily harm, but also to prevent the "commission of a forcible felony." Those who wonder why jurors didn't expect that a reasonable person in George Zimmerman's situation should have taken lesser action than firing a deadly shot at a kid whose arsenal consisted of candy and a soft drink – regardless of whether or not he attacked Zimmerman — may find their answer on page 11 of the jury instructions.

Given this instruction, it is worth pointing out that George Zimmerman was studying criminal justice at an online college, including Florida's Stand Your Ground law. After jurors watched the recording of a Fox News interview in which Zimmerman claimed to have no knowledge of Florida's Stand Your Ground law, his college professor testified that the law was covered extensively in his class, and that Zimmerman was "probably one of the better students in the class" and received an A.

Regardless of whether Zimmerman was well-versed in the statute and exploited it to his advantage, it remains the law in Florida. Its inclusion in the jury instructions as an explanation of self-defense makes all the more compelling the jury's reasonable doubt about Zimmerman's legal culpability, even if, as Emily Bazelon suggests, Florida is undoubtedly guilty.

The Stand Your Ground law may once again play a pivotal role in civil lawsuits against Zimmerman. As legal commentators have pointed out, the Stand Your Ground law provides the same opportunity for defendants to seek immunity from civil liability that it does from criminal, if a judge finds the defendant's use of force was justifiable under the law's standards. And as in this case, even if a judge doesn't find Zimmerman immune, a jury would once again be instructed to take the Stand Your Ground rule into account.

UPDATE
In an interview on Anderson Cooper 360 Monday night, an anonymous juror from the Zimmerman panel said the Stand Your Ground law was a major factor in their deliberation.

[strider]

NotNow, is there a established state definition of the term aggressor?  I know sometimes government definitions differ from what the normal publicly accepted definition is.

[JayBird]

I am pretty familiar with prisons, or at least the concept.   Perhaps you misunderstand.  My statement is meant to emphasize that "prison" cannot be a useful industry.  Locking up human potential is very wasteful, no matter how many guards you employ. 

I know why the incarceration rate is rising.  And we can do a lot locally to reduce that, while changing our system of punishment. 

but the discussion is about poverty and its relationship with crime...don't forget.

Well not now, what do you think we do with prisoners?  They don't go do something socially useful anymore.  Perhaps some of the local jails do....

But the prison work force is a paid for facility subsidized by the american taxpayer designed to create a perfect low wage non unionized assett for industrial production.  Many of them have been retooled to manufacture parts for industry, and the private groups that own the prisons simply charge the corporations for providing them with low cost production and goods (based on slave labor) and pocket the profits.  Voila.  Its a huge industry based on enforced impoverization.  something like a million souls who arent getting out of prison anytime soon, because they are now too highly skilled at their jobs to be let go.

Did you seriously think Arizona's immigration laws were about border security?

lol.

Nothing to do with this thread but this is just a false impression of prisons fostered by years of corruption. The number of beds and inmates has been decreasing the last two years and will continue to this year. Once the Crosby incident happened in 2006 the Florida DC underwent what could now be considered a paradigm shift. This is a subject I am intimately involved with and have every report, statistic and consult done on DC since 2000 filling my den. But like I said, has nothing to do with this thread but had to put my $.02 in on such a large discrepancy.

[JayBird]

It would be helpful if the Tampa piece had just let the commentary go and given just the facts of the cases.  I won't put too much into that bit of journalism until I see unbiased case briefs.

m
Agreed, I had thought same

[NotNow]

Are you really convinced that 15% of the population must live in poverty?

How do you think the system of the past twenty years works?

Once again, you are living in the past.  I am discussing the future.

When you shrink the middle class and concentrate the majority of the wealth into a few hands, there really isnt enough total wealth to support more than about 80% of the Americans in a lower to middle class lifestyle.

A statement made with no basis in fact, but simply repeating ideology that you have read.  This is a sad point of view.

Its not that there is unlimited money circulating and you need to go dig up a portion of it, you know.

There is a constant demand for skilled labor and knowledge.  Our young people should be filling that demand.
http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231486/10_hot_IT_skills_for_2013

There are very hard working people who will never be worth more than a few thousand people, and it doesnt have anything to do with 'how hard' they want it.

I suppose you meant "a few thousand dollars".  I disagree.  Anyone can "work smarter".   Will you gain wealth cleaning a house for a room + $50 a week?  No.  How about if you clean five houses for $20 an hour?

Its something I was trying to talk to you about a couple of years ago with the migrant labor issue.  Do you really think that most Americans could afford to eat if the food was being harvested and processed by people making American wages?  Or even minimum wage?

What do you rely on for this view?  You seem to want to speak for the entire agriculture industry, while you are unaware that many farms work at minimum wage or higher.  While some dependency on less than legal wages has been developed, why would anyone want to continue such a system?  Slave wages for non citizens?  In your world if the illegal immigrant is granted citizenship he/she will no longer be able to work, unless they work for illegal wages.   None of that drivel is true.

If you think about it, students live in poverty while going through college. Its part of the experience for most people.  If they could afford to work a job and pay for their school, why on earth would they be desperate to take on the crippling debts that are more than mortgages used to be in order to get a degree?

Poverty?  Debts more than mortgages?  Most young people are still supported by their parents.  For those of us who financed our own education, there are many options.  Mine was the GI Bill.  And anyone that is borrowing as much as a mortgage better be finishing medical school.   Many states are fighting the rising cost of education.  This should be encoraged.

And right now, 1 out of every 6 Americans are getting food stamps.  Now thats in addition to all the people who don't really qualify.

Yeah.  I don't agree with the democrats ruining opportunity either.  And it is getting worse.  The answer to food stamps..and welfare is jobs.

What do you think the real statistics are when you factor in migrant labor, 2 million people in prisons, many many more in jails and work farms, and the undocumented poor?

I don't know what "real statistics" you are referring to.

Perhaps you should consider what I suggested several posts ago, completely rethinking how we punish criminals.  and again providing a clear step by step path to success to our young people and rewarding productive behavior, while strongly taking a stand against destructive or negative activities.

[JayBird]

I am pretty familiar with prisons, or at least the concept.   Perhaps you misunderstand.  My statement is meant to emphasize that "prison" cannot be a useful industry.  Locking up human potential is very wasteful, no matter how many guards you employ. 

I know why the incarceration rate is rising.  And we can do a lot locally to reduce that, while changing our system of punishment. 

but the discussion is about poverty and its relationship with crime...don't forget.

Well not now, what do you think we do with prisoners?  They don't go do something socially useful anymore.  Perhaps some of the local jails do....

But the prison work force is a paid for facility subsidized by the american taxpayer designed to create a perfect low wage non unionized assett for industrial production.  Many of them have been retooled to manufacture parts for industry, and the private groups that own the prisons simply charge the corporations for providing them with low cost production and goods (based on slave labor) and pocket the profits.  Voila.  Its a huge industry based on enforced impoverization.  something like a million souls who arent getting out of prison anytime soon, because they are now too highly skilled at their jobs to be let go.

Did you seriously think Arizona's immigration laws were about border security?

lol.

Nothing to do with this thread but this is just a false impression of prisons fostered by years of corruption. The number of beds and inmates has been decreasing the last two years and will continue to this year. Once the Crosby incident happened in 2006 the Florida DC underwent what could now be considered a paradigm shift. This is a subject I am intimately involved with and have every report, statistic and consult done on DC since 2000 filling my den. But like I said, has nothing to do with this thread but had to put my $.02 in on such a large discrepancy.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44936562/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/private-prison-industry-grows-despite-critics/#.Ueco7pU_7PY

After I posted that I thought I should have gone back and edited. I was speaking purely in terms of Florida. Each state is responsible for the operation of their own prisons and the federal government (illegal immigrants fall here) for their own facilities.

[NotNow]

I read your link about private prison industries.  I can see how you could come to the conclusions that you have.  Are you aware that only 16% of the prison population (Federal) work in such industries?  Most perform sundry duties around the prison for less money (meal prep, etc.).

What "digging" have you done?  I have shown you the demand for skills and skilled labor in this country.  Your argument that "there's not enough money to go around" has no basis in reality.  Is there any study that substantiates such a claim?  Your characterization of both the need for illegal wages and the "poverty" of college students was ... just.... incorrect.  Off the cuff?  Your statements exemplify "off the cuff".

I do not accept that we can not defeat poverty and all of the injuries that it causes people.  I refuse to accept that nothing can be done.  We have a federal government that freely spends TRILLIONS of dollars.  We can change this.

[HisBuffPVB]

The jury spoke. The jury system, a jury of peers, goes back some 800 years, peers mean citizens, and is a color blind term, eg. one does not have a jury based on a racial, age or other makeup, it is made up of people qualified who are then vetted by both the prosecutors and defense. It may be open to discussion as to whether racial makeup should be considered. Both sides present their evidence within the rules of evidence. Both sides bring forth witnesses, depending on the ability and the quality of the attorney's, some witnesses are better prepped than others, though all are supposed to tell the truth as they know it to be, in fact are sworn to tell the truth. Having lost a grandson, I grieve for the family who in this case lost their son, but the jury heard all the evidence and the arguments and the jury spoke.
Now, personally, I think that GZ was overcharged and the prosecutor could not overcome that decision, I thought he would get manslaughter, but never thought the elements of 2nd degree murder were in play. I further think that it would be improper for the justice department now to file charges against GZ, again, the elements for Civil Rights violations will not be in play.
My heart goes out to Trayvon's parents. I am only lucky that at 17 I did not get into a situation like that.

[NotNow]

NotNow, is there a established state definition of the term aggressor?  I know sometimes government definitions differ from what the normal publicly accepted definition is.

I am not aware of a definition in the statutes.

[JayBird]

NotNow, is there a established state definition of the term aggressor?  I know sometimes government definitions differ from what the normal publicly accepted definition is.

I am not aware of a definition in the statutes.

True there isn't and I even believe it is up to the police officer or state attorney's interpretation of the events to define and determine "aggressor" case by case

[I-10east]

Yall heard about this "Boycott Florida" stuff because of the stand your ground law. Although Florida isn't exactly the only state with stand your ground with twenty-thirty some odd states using this law. I guess that the backlash is from all of these high profile cases; Even though the most high profile one, the law wasn't used.