Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[NotNow]

Not Now, what is the legal age for gun ownership in Florida or for concealed weapon permitting?  I know kids can own rifles, is that the same for handguns?

18 for rifles, 21 for handguns I believe.

Thank you Not Now.  So is it then illegal for a child under 18 to use a hunting rifle.  (outside of this discussion I know but just curious.

Mitch, according to what Not Now just shared, had Trayvon brought a gun to the fight that night he would have done so illegally.  Just a point worth considering when talking about that particular interaction and what may have happened.

Children can hunt with their parents.  Or other responsible adults.

[NotNow]

Thanks for the more reasoned response.  I certainly understand the frustration felt.  I could recount many, many jury verdicts that I did not personally agree with, along with many more State Attorney or judicial decisions.  I have learned to live with our imperfect system, as you have. 


A point that I have been meaning to bring up to Lake...Black people or Gay people aren't the only ones who have an honest fear about walking places not only in the South but throughout the country.  Some of the posts you see here reflect the feeling of many whites that they are targeted and taken advantage of.  Even your implication of "yuppie apartments" is an example.  Blacks don't have the sole claim on being poor either.  The vast majority of whites struggle economically as well. 

I think we can all agree that racism in any form is detrimental.  And that despite the failings and constant attention that our criminal justice system requires, it is still the best system we have yet devised.

We can continue to disagree on political issues like gun control.  But we can only communicate when we are exchanging ideas based on facts.  Shouting matches result in...shouting matches.  I know I have been guilty of many of them.

[thelakelander]

I actually agree with most of what you said. I'm all about victim advocacy. Would you disagree that had Zimmerman not had a gun he may have been the victim? Although it is likely none of us would be familiar with the case.

Since everyone is pretty much making assumptions now, GZ would not have died. He just would have been a victim of a good ass kicking for a fight he started.

[thelakelander]

A point that I have been meaning to bring up to Lake...Black people or Gay people aren't the only ones who have an honest fear about walking places not only in the South but throughout the country.  Some of the posts you see here reflect the feeling of many whites that they are targeted and taken advantage of.  Even your implication of "yuppie apartments" is an example.  Blacks don't have the sole claim on being poor either.  The vast majority of whites struggle economically as well.

I really don't understand why everyone keeps saying race isn't an issue but keeps isolating events and people based on skin color.  I've been pretty consistent on all of these threads with my claim that crime isn't skin color specific.  The real relationship focuses on economics and environment. 

I think we can all agree that racism in any form is detrimental.  And that despite the failings and constant attention that our criminal justice system requires, it is still the best system we have yet devised.

There's always room for improvement. Tragedies like this will continue to push us to improve and tweek laws where needed.

We can continue to disagree on political issues like gun control.  But we can only communicate when we are exchanging ideas based on facts.  Shouting matches result in...shouting matches.  I know I have been guilty of many of them.

Definitely agree here.  My head is about to pop as I keep reading posts featuring cherry picked statistical data (clearly taken out of context), like black-on-black crime.

[NotNow]

I agree that economics is the main driver.  The social problems have to be solved as well though.  It seems so simple...focus on jobs and education.  I suppose the difference between most of us would be just how to get people to work and how to keep kids in line and in school.

[Cheshire Cat]

Well Ennis, don't let your head explode.  We all need you.  I would agree several of the ongoing threads are at the very least a challenge to walk though emotionally and intellectually, but this forum is doing far better in these conversations than any other social exchange I have seen currently taking place.

As far as statistics go, they are literally all over the place depending on who is doing the counting.  The only ones I can currently have in faith in are those that are in the hands of the Sheriffs office which are based on the records of crime, arrests, convictions and incarcerations for Jacksonville.  I don't have the recent numbers but they may be available on the JSO site.  However they would only represent Duval.

[thelakelander]

I agree that economics is the main driver.  The social problems have to be solved as well though.  It seems so simple...focus on jobs and education.  I suppose the difference between most of us would be just how to get people to work and how to keep kids in line and in school.

Social is based off of economics and environment.  What you have now is the result of several economic, political and environmental factors in place over several previous generations.    The focus is simple.  However, I think many of us may be too impatient in the wait for large scale results.  It took us generations to get to where we are today and it could take just as many to go in an opposite direction.

[Cheshire Cat]

For those who are interested, here is a link to the JSO where you can find stats and info about our community including crime.  You can also contact JSO through this page and request information on criminal statistics, including breakdown by race.

http://www.coj.net/departments/sheriffs-office/crime-statistics.aspx

[NotNow]

There are two ways to make money... earn it or take it.   Earning it takes time.  Taking it gets you killed.

I'm a firm believer in motivation.  I think EVERYBODY wants to be successful, they just need a clear path and motivation.  Simply reward the positive, discourage the negative.

[Cheshire Cat]

I agree that economics is the main driver.  The social problems have to be solved as well though.  It seems so simple...focus on jobs and education.  I suppose the difference between most of us would be just how to get people to work and how to keep kids in line and in school.

Social is based off of economics and environment.  What you have now is the result of several economic, political and environmental factors in place over several previous generations.    The focus is simple.  However, I think many of us may be too impatient in the wait for large scale results.  It took us generations to get to where we are today and it could take just as many to go in an opposite direction.

Indeed it will take a long time Ennis.  I don't know as I will be here to see the results but they will come with hard and insightful work.  I do believe your children will reap the benefit and the ones following them will marvel at these days and wonder why.

[NotNow]

I said "make money".  I'm not talking about those that already have it.  And I'm not talking about 'fabulous wealth".  I'm talking about an increasing net worth that allows for a good life and a reasonable retirement.  The poverty stricken..don't have to be.

[Cheshire Cat]

Indeed, but inheriting is not that bad. 

[NotNow]

Indeed, but inheriting is not that bad. 

I wouldn't know.

[thelakelander]

For those who are interested, here is a link to the JSO where you can find stats and info about our community including crime.  You can also contact JSO through this page and request information on criminal statistics, including breakdown by race.

http://www.coj.net/departments/sheriffs-office/crime-statistics.aspx

Maybe I missed it but I couldn't find the corresponding laying information on economic/environmental factors such as household income/educational levels, density, etc.  It's kind of hard to evaluate criminal statistics without understanding the context.

I know we don't have this, but it would be cool to see how public policy has impacted areas of higher than average crime over the years.  For example, historically, have certain neighborhoods been the victim of real estate redlining, meaning long time families have not seen much gain in wealth in property owned since WWII?  Are some areas dealing with the placement of federally funded housing projects where high densities of low income households are grouped together in a compact setting? 

To some, these questions may seem crazy but if this information was overlayed with crime data, combined they could tell an interesting story.  Such data could also be used in the planning of our city, revitalization of economically distressed neighborhoods, turning around stagnant neighborhoods, and preserving economically viable areas.  Such data could also look at the economic status of neighborhoods where schools and libraries have already been closed.  This could help us make rational decisions when it comes to our local budget cutting process that rears its ugly head every summer.

Anyway, I'm just brainstorming out loud.  I'd love to see what others have to think about this.

[Cheshire Cat]

For those who are interested, here is a link to the JSO where you can find stats and info about our community including crime.  You can also contact JSO through this page and request information on criminal statistics, including breakdown by race.

http://www.coj.net/departments/sheriffs-office/crime-statistics.aspx

Maybe I missed it but I couldn't find the corresponding laying information on economic/environmental factors such as household income/educational levels, density, etc.  It's kind of hard to evaluate criminal statistics without understanding the context.

I know we don't have this, but it would be cool to see how public policy has impacted areas of higher than average crime over the years.  For example, historically, have certain neighborhoods been the victim of real estate redlining, meaning long time families have not seen much gain in wealth in property owned since WWII?  Are some areas dealing with the placement of federally funded housing projects where high densities of low income households are grouped together in a compact setting? 

To some, these questions may seem crazy but if this information was overlayed with crime data, combined they could tell an interesting story.  Such data could also be used in the planning of our city, revitalization of economically distressed neighborhoods, turning around stagnant neighborhoods, and preserving economically viable areas.  Such data could also look at the economic status of neighborhoods where schools and libraries have already been closed.  This could help us make rational decisions when it comes to our local budget cutting process that rears its ugly head every summer.

Anyway, I'm just brainstorming out loud.  I'd love to see what others have to think about this.

That may not be online Ennis.  It may have been a hand out during a meeting some time back.  I will try and remember what department put it together.  There is a crime mapping overlay I believe online.  If I can remember the department that had the economic overlay info perhaps you can create an overlay.