Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[Cheshire Cat]

Thank you for you words and insight.  If I may Ennis, I think it is the volatile double standard when it comes to the use of racially charge words like ni@@er that bothers many non Blacks along with some sense of discrimination toward Whites who simply because they are White are thought to harbor racist feelings or indifferent to the struggles of low income individuals including Blacks.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't know if you have been over to the "profiling" thread, but there is an overlap discussion there about this issue. When you get the time will you check out the conversation there and respond.  I am wondering if there is a way to move the conversation on the profile thread to this one to maintain clarity?  I also intend to engage other portions of your post as well. 

[Demosthenes]

I think thats fair.

I think what occurred was a tragedy. I think the efforts to paint Zimmerman or Martin as a saint or villain are misplaced.

Martain was not just a poor little kid with Skittles and Arizona Iced tea. He was a cocksure, wanna be thug who decided to confront the "cracker" who was bothering him. I dont think anyone should be harassed while walking around, and I dont know what I might have done in his shoes.

Conversely, I have been in Zimmermans shoes. He was trying to do a good thing. He was perhaps a bit too agressive, but not the point of confronting anyone. Yes, he probably should not have gotten out of his car, but there is no law against that either.

There are a lot of different ways things could have gone down that night. There was no racism. There was simply a series of moderately bad decisions on behalf of two people. Zimmermans mistake getting out his car, and Martins was to jump someone who he had no idea if he was armed or not. This led to one life ended, and the other one basically ruined.

Its sad, and as much as we try to paint it as a black and white issue, its so nuanced that its a folly to try to make it seem simple.

[thelakelander]

Thank you for you words and insight.  If I may Ennis, I think it is the volatile double standard when it comes to the use of racially charge words like ni@@er that bothers many non Blacks along with some sense of discrimination toward Whites who simply because they are White are thought to harbor racist feelings or indifferent to the struggles of low income individuals including Blacks.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't know.  This stuff is ingrained in many after years of injustices.  For all I know, to some, the level of hopelessness can be so great that it could feel like that word is all they have.  It took centuries to get to where we're at today and it could take centuries to turn things around. However, keep in mind, you're dealing with a situation where you're looking at a portion of the population that has a higher poverty rate and lower access to educational opportunities many take for granted.  It's an environment and economic situation that many will never truly understand or grasp. 

However, I know this.  Change the environment and economic status, change the results for future generations.  That not only applies to the example I gave with my grandfather but also well known families, such as the Kennedys.

I don't know if you have been over to the "profiling" thread, but there is an overlap discussion there about this issue. When you get the time will you check out the conversation there and respond.  I am wondering if there is a way to move the conversation on the profile thread to this one to maintain clarity?

I haven't had time to look.  Partially because I've been working today and partially because some of the opinions/ignorance infuriates me.

[Cheshire Cat]

^  When you do look, I think you will see we have many parallel thoughts. 

[NotNow]

Jeffrey,

Here is the Florida "Use of Force by Aggressor" law:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

[Demosthenes]

I think that there is some confusion also in what Zimmerman was tried under. He did not claim innocent under the Shoot First law. He claimed self defense.

Be mad at shoot first all you want, but it wasnt what got him acquitted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DreD3TjByv4

[Cheshire Cat]

Jeffrey,

Here is the Florida "Use of Force by Aggressor" law:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Thanks for sharing this NN.

[JeffreyS]

Thanks NN, I can't see why if that were requested to be in the jury instructions there would be an issue with it.

[thelakelander]

There are a lot of different ways things could have gone down that night. There was no racism. There was simply a series of moderately bad decisions on behalf of two people. Zimmermans mistake getting out his car, and Martins was to jump someone who he had no idea if he was armed or not. This led to one life ended, and the other one basically ruined.

Its sad, and as much as we try to paint it as a black and white issue, its so nuanced that its a folly to try to make it seem simple.

You can pretty much say the same thing about a person who's had too many drinks at the bar and accidentally kills someone as a result of DUI. Innocent mistakes. Most of the discussion on black vs white issues taking place right now is most likely a major result of GZ walking free.  GZ gets hit with manslaughter and does prison time, then he's no different from Mr. DUI or Southside Chicago murderer who's caught and put behind bars.

[NotNow]

Jeffrey, I didn't see the trial and I have no idea why any motion ws denied or granted.

As previously stated, the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law" FSS 776.013 does not directly apply to this case.  This was tried as self defense as codified in FSS 776.012:

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

I don't believe that this case has anything to do with "stand your ground".  It does provide a discussion over the use of force in self defense.   It can also be used to discuss the "aggressor" theory.   Did Mr. Zimmerman's pursuit of Mr. Martin constitute a "provocation"?  Could that pursuit be said to "provoke the use of force against himself"?  Both Zimmerman and Martin were legally positioned and both had a right of travel.  I didn't see the trial, but was Martin's fear of Zimmerman clearly discussed and what rights he had as far as self defense?  Obviously, the jury saw the testimony of a break in the pursuit as stopping any aggression by Zimmerman.  The racial discussion seems to be discounted by the available evidence...(the fact that Zimmerman only identified race when asked, the fact that he seemed not to be sure of Martins race, and the FBI finding of no racial overtones in the case). 

This case was clearly decided on self defense only, even according to the jurors who have spoken out.  They apparently decided to discard the pursuit as a cause of the homicide.  The right of Zimmerman to carry a concealed firearm seems to me to be settled law.  Whether he misused that right by using deadly force when it was unwarranted has been decided by the jury. 

So the central questions here, whether we agree with them are not, have been settled. 

-The prosecutor, jury, and FBI saw no racial animus. 

-The fact that Zimmerman pursued Martin, even to the point of exiting his vehicle, was not recognized by the jury as an element of "crime".

MANSLAUGHTER
782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

In this case, the jury apparently did not see culpable negligence or attach "unlawful justification" to the pursuit.

-The jury, as has been stated, agreed that Zimmerman felt "in fear of his life or great bodily harm" while on his back with Martin on top physically striking him. 

The argument against any one of these three points was apparently either not made, or was too weak, or did not conform to the available evidence enough for the jurors to convict.

I think the laws are suitable.  The system we have looked at these statutes and decided to acquit.  I don't believe that weakening the current laws on the justifiable use of force would be advantageous to the citizens of the state. 

I believe that the actions of both parties contributed to the tragic death of Mr. Martin that night.  I believe that Mr. Zimmermans actions in pursuing Martin were reckless, and again lacking access to the evidence, appeared negligent.  Based on what I have heard, I would hesitate to criticize the use of force by a citizen on their back being beaten.  Such physical confrontations can easily lead to great bodily harm or even death.  I wouldn't question Martin stopping and challenging someone following him as well.  But, again absent contradictory testimony, according to Zimmerman no warning or questioning was spoken.   I just don't see how we could responsibly change laws to avert a tragic set of events such as this.  Just my 2 cents.

[peestandingup]

Thank you for you words and insight.  If I may Ennis, I think it is the volatile double standard when it comes to the use of racially charge words like ni@@er that bothers many non Blacks along with some sense of discrimination toward Whites who simply because they are White are thought to harbor racist feelings or indifferent to the struggles of low income individuals including Blacks.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't know.  This stuff is ingrained in many after years of injustices.  For all I know, to some, the level of hopelessness can be so great that it could feel like that word is all they have.  It took centuries to get to where we're at today and it could take centuries to turn things around. However, keep in mind, you're dealing with a situation where you're looking at a portion of the population that has a higher poverty rate and lower access to educational opportunities many take for granted.  It's an environment and economic situation that many will never truly understand or grasp. 

However, I know this.  Change the environment and economic status, change the results for future generations.  That not only applies to the example I gave with my grandfather but also well known families, such as the Kennedys.

I honestly think you've cracked it, Ennis. I'd also go a step further & say that keeping "business as usual" is part of the harsh reality. Prisons need filled, crimes need to be committed, etc in order to sustain what is currently in place. And you dont get that by empowering people, of any race, to truly take control of their situation. Education is also key, but de-funding is the name of that game as well. We can apparently fund endless wars that do nothing, security farces up the wazoo, prisons, etc, but not education. That should tell you something right there.

And it's unfortunate that many blacks (and many under class whites too) aren't educated enough to see the reality of this. So instead, they turn their anger on each other, some random person on the street, or an entire group of regular everyday people for their woes. Its what I was sorta alluding to in my earlier comment on how many blacks are all of a sudden riled up because a black man/teen was shot by a non-black. When blacks killing blacks happens every single day, all over the country. Some go to jail for it, yes. But some don't. And besides, dead is dead. And even the people that get sent to prisons for these crimes are "dead" in a way. Its just another waste of life.

That's why I've mostly kept my mouth shut about this stuff lately when talking to anyone. I feel, although an important case, that it's a huge distraction from the ugly realities of day to day life for many people. And the people arguing about it are completely misguided & not seeing the forest for one single tree.

[thelakelander]

Jeffrey,

Here is the Florida "Use of Force by Aggressor" law:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Thanks for sharing this NN.

I don't think anyone can deny the bolded part.  GZ's injuries were not consistent with this thought but it's hard to prove he didn't think TM would kill him.  After all, to him, TM was a thug looking to rob someone in his community.

[NotNow]

There are a lot of different ways things could have gone down that night. There was no racism. There was simply a series of moderately bad decisions on behalf of two people. Zimmermans mistake getting out his car, and Martins was to jump someone who he had no idea if he was armed or not. This led to one life ended, and the other one basically ruined.

Its sad, and as much as we try to paint it as a black and white issue, its so nuanced that its a folly to try to make it seem simple.

You can pretty much say the same thing about a person who's had too many drinks at the bar and accidentally kills someone as a result of DUI. Innocent mistakes. Most of the discussion on black vs white issues taking place right now is most likely a major result of GZ walking free.  GZ gets hit with manslaughter and does prison time, then he's no different from Mr. DUI or Southside Chicago murderer who's caught and put behind bars.

I would actually put it the other way Lake. 

In DUI cases, the act of drinking and then getting behind the wheel establishes negligence. 

In this case, the act of pursuit, continuous surveillance without questioning or verbal contact, even to the point of exiting the vehicle without identification visually or verbally, actually searching for Martin on foot, and the resulting fear that placed in a young Mr. Martin.  That would seem to be the argument that establishes negligence on the part of Mr. Zimmerman leading to manslaughter.

[johnnyman]

No one is disputing the fact that he should have stayed in the car.

then thats the end of the story.

Stephen, if you ever want to get out of jury duty if it ever comes up for you, just provide them with your post here.  Pure genius man.

[thelakelander]

And it's unfortunate that many blacks (and many under class whites too) aren't educated enough to see the reality of this. So instead, they turn their anger on each other, some random person on the street, or an entire group of regular everyday people for their woes.

I don't think this is the case either.  The situation stems from economics.  People still have kids, have to pay bills and still need places to live and cars for access.  This requires money regardless of whether you have a college degree/job or not.  You're broke, behind on the bills, the car needs to be repaired, and there's no food in the frige for the kids.  What are you going to do?  For many, doing illegal things are simply a desperate means of survival.  However, the flip end of that, is it also leads to felonies (which screw you up long term even more) and confrontations. In many circumstances, those confrontations (could be as simple as fighting over turf to make illegal money) result in death.  It's a pretty bad cycle but it's an economic and environmental one.  Not racial.

Its what I was sorta alluding to in my earlier comment on how many blacks are all of a sudden riled up because a black man/teen was shot by a non-black.

GZ/TM is a non-story if GZ is locked away behind bars for manslaughter.  He's no different from the drunk driver doing time for killing an innocent pedestrian or someone on the Southside of Chicago getting arrested for murder. Right or wrong, the way things went down (jury finds killer not guilty), makes it another sad chapter in what one segment of the population deems as a list of injustices (especially, since the Florida law allows such an event to legally take place).  Just goes to show, things aren't all peaches and cream despite some trying to paint our picture in that light.