Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center

[simms3]

Seems like Pollack Shores (Riverside Park) and Arbour Valley (Ambassador Hotel) aren't waiting for 220 Riverside to determine if they will move forward on their projects or not.  Units also seem to be rapidly mushrooming all around the Southside.  There, I truly question if we're overbuilding.

SS is a different market altogether - it's basically proven at this point and even SS isn't doing anything odd, same overall rents, same overall garden style formula.  I know of a company that recently looked at a large deal on the SS - the discussion revolved around it being the "center of town" and where all the jobs and young people congregate.  Given the Jacksonville market, I don't consider a development a done deal until the foundation is poured.  Even in much larger Atlanta many deals are on "standby" ready to sprout quickly upon word that other projects are doing well - it's not atypical and would be the smart thing, imo for risk takers willing to build infill around Jax, a risky and unproven market and a new product type for the market.

[tufsu1]

Perhaps, but remember that aircraft carrier will single handedly deliver around 10,000 new residents. This plus other recent announcments are grounds to be optimistic. I agree that downtown is starting to move, recall that article a week or two ago that put us near the top for business and economy.

is that the aircraft carrier we won't be getting until 2020 at the easrliest?

[thelakelander]

IF, and that's a big IF, that aircraft carrier ever comes, it will be huge economically but I doubt it will have a significant impact on the downtown housing market.

[Ocklawaha]

Yes TUFSU1, the anti-military Junta currently in power will likely not last beyond the next elections now that the S**T is hitting the fans all across the board. The Navy would very much like to base a carrier here, and there will probably be a 5 year build up for support, and to prepare for O&M on one of the new Nuke ships.

Having all of your ships in a single port is a recipe for disaster should some modern incarnation of the sons of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, decide to "Climb Mt. Niitaka."

[Charles Hunter]

[THREAD DERAILED]
Ock, why you dumping on TUFSU1?  He said a carrier could be here in 2020.  Adding your 5 years of prep to today, you get 2018 - not that different.  And it isn't the current administration in DC that's standing in the way - after all the D0D wants to move one here (as you said).  It is the Congressional delegation (8 GOP, 3 Dems in Congress, and both Senators are Dem) from Virginia that is standing in the way.  It was thelakelander who doubts a carrier will ever come here.

While I think logic will win out, and we will get a flat-top, I agree with Lake that it will have very little effect on downtown housing.

[JayBird]

I don't believe a street stop in Jacksonville will work for Greyhound, even temporarily. In my experience with them, when they come into Jax a majority of the buses have all of the passengers disembark so that they may flush the septic system and I guess get fuel and other stuff. So they would need to go from 10 Pearl to their new permanent site. But in the absence of common sense by JTA, how about one of these alternatives:

1) Move the Greyhound terminal so it is next Rosa Parks/FSCJ station. It would require buying out the planned office space that will eventually be built there, but it is easily accessed by Skyway. I mean it seems that JTA wants everything in one spot, which is good, but sometimes isn't feasible.  As Ock's list pointed out, look how many intermodal stations there are on Manhattan alone, and they all link different services. 

2.) Lets say this is built exactly as drawn up by JTA, would it be possible to do so in such a way that TOD could be built on top of it?

3.) All that aside, if JTA continues as planned and Greyhound breaks ground in August out in the boonies, is there another design that could be advocated for to try to make it easier for transition?  (i.e. what if there were a streetcar that ran up Lee or Johnson streets, giving those that didn't want to walk or maybe couldn't walk that far another option).


As I was leaving the city this morning I noticed another major issue that FDOT, FHP and JSO will have to address with the current layout if it goes through ... cars coming off I-95 North onto Forsyth are MOVING!  They do not slow down till they have to either at Lee or Jefferson.  Those crossing at street level to reach the outlying Greyhound would be in serious trouble.

[JayBird]

And as for the floating city returning to Mayport, the White House and Dems as a whole would love nothing more ... they need every vote in NEFlorida they can get and know that will do it.  It is a matter of the getting the politicians of the great commonwealth of virginia to let it go.  However, being they are doing construction on a pier specifically for a nuclear carrier, I think our 2020ish chances are pretty high.

[Ocklawaha]

Yes TUFSU1, the anti-military Junta currently in power will likely not last beyond the next elections now that the S**T is hitting the fans all across the board. The Navy would very much like to base a carrier here, and there will probably be a 5 year build up for support, and to prepare for O&M on one of the new Nuke ships.

Having all of your ships in a single port is a recipe for disaster should some modern incarnation of the sons of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, decide to "Climb Mt. Niitaka."

Uh? I wasn't dumping on him, I agreed with him and closed with the logical reason why.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't believe a street stop in Jacksonville will work for Greyhound, even temporarily. In my experience with them, when they come into Jax a majority of the buses have all of the passengers disembark so that they may flush the septic system and I guess get fuel and other stuff. So they would need to go from 10 Pearl to their new permanent site. But in the absence of common sense by JTA, how about one of these alternatives:

Good comments, yes the buses empty out in Jacksonville which makes us ideal for connections, interchange and servicing coaches of other bus, coach and tour operators.  Your observations are correct, it is a Federal DOT requirement that the buses may not be occupied when fueling.

(1) Move the Greyhound terminal so it is next Rosa Parks/FSCJ station. It would require buying out the planned office space that will eventually be built there, but it is easily accessed by Skyway. I mean it seems that JTA wants everything in one spot, which is good, but sometimes isn't feasible.  As Ock's list pointed out, look how many intermodal stations there are on Manhattan alone, and they all link different services. 

Greyhound is Inter-city and in fact is our largest Inter-city surface carrier, they are a natural compliment to Amtrak, 450 passengers v 50. When part of that 450 is moving from NYC to Tallahassee or Gainesville for school, they need to interchange as close as possible.

2.) Lets say this is built exactly as drawn up by JTA, would it be possible to do so in such a way that TOD could be built on top of it?

Probably not as the city will be bankrupt and the entire stretch of 5 new buildings will be M/L vacant.

3.) All that aside, if JTA continues as planned and Greyhound breaks ground in August out in the boonies, is there another design that could be advocated for to try to make it easier for transition?  (i.e. what if there were a streetcar that ran up Lee or Johnson streets, giving those that didn't want to walk or maybe couldn't walk that far another option).

Still doesn't work for the 20 something mom, baby, stroller, 2 suitcases, and a giant Hefty bags of toys, bottles, etc.  We need to make this so easy a 'caveman could do it.'

As I was leaving the city this morning I noticed another major issue that FDOT, FHP and JSO will have to address with the current layout if it goes through ... cars coming off I-95 North onto Forsyth are MOVING!  They do not slow down till they have to either at Lee or Jefferson.  Those crossing at street level to reach the outlying Greyhound would be in serious trouble.

Yep! And the gang speeding up to hit the Bay Street onramp is no better. These are dangerous streets and the plan itself needlessly puts people at risk.

Great reply!

[thelakelander]

^The JRTC's solution to the Bay and Forsyth ramps appears to be an elevated pedestrian concourse.  So your transfer will involve going up and down to sets of stairs/escalators/elevators in addition to your multiple block walk.  Have you ever had a connecting flight in Atlanta with a short period of time to get from one gate to another? Either you break out in a sweat or end up missing your connection. We're basically creating that situation here.

[JayBird]

^The JRTC's solution to the Bay and Forsyth ramps appears to be an elevated pedestrian concourse.  So you're transfer will involve going up and down to sets of stairs/escalators/elevators in addition to your multiple block walk.  Have you ever had a connecting flight in Atlanta with a short period of time to get from one gate to another? Either you break out in a sweat or end up missing your connection. We're basically creating that situation here.

Very vivid, accurate example because anyone who has flown Delta has dealt with that!

Greyhound is Inter-city and in fact is our largest Inter-city surface carrier, they are a natural compliment to Amtrak, 450 passengers v 50. When part of that 450 is moving from NYC to Tallahassee or Gainesville for school, they need to interchange as close as possible.

Still doesn't work for the 20 something mom, baby, stroller, 2 suitcases, and a giant Hefty bags of toys, bottles, etc.  We need to make this so easy a 'caveman could do it.'

Being that COJ owns lots of property there, wouldn't it be better to site Greyhound on the block between Forsyth, Johnson, Bay and Lee streets?  Then you could put JTA on same block as Skyway.  Possibly build parking garage between Skyway and I-95 or one in the current convention center lot.  This would still leave people having to cross Bay Street, but seems like a good compromise that would keep convention center at Prime Osborne for now.

[Ocklawaha]

It is never a good idea to force travelers to cross streets. Honestly who is going to hike a block AWAY from a station whos front door is plainly visible across the road? The fact is all of our moter carrier bus and coach traffic easily fits within a single area, we dont need to divide them into remote stations. If the PO is not going to move we would be better building a totally new terminal for all modes in the current west parking lot, using the remaining blocks for parking and development.

Sent from phone

[JayBird]

It is never a good idea to force travelers to cross streets. Honestly who is going to hike a block AWAY from a station whos front door is plainly visible across the road? The fact is all of our moter carrier bus and coach traffic easily fits within a single area, we dont need to divide them into remote stations. If the PO is not going to move we would be better building a totally new terminal for all modes in the current west parking lot, using the remaining blocks for parking and development.

Sent from phone

I see your point ... however if commuter rail comes to Jax then a high majority of that traffic will be transferring to Skyway so that still leaves you crossing roads.  My ONLY reservation to having everything on one site is access.  Buses break down, people do not pay attention and accidents happen, too many people in one area will create gridlock.  In this, look 10-15 years in the future when businesses are beginning to thrive in Jax, new residential and office towers are being built and all undeveloped land in the urban core is a picture in the history section of MJ.  The biggest complaint will be how the transit station downtown is operating over capacity.  Buses backed out onto Bay Street waiting for Grandpa Joe to back his Buick into a parking spot.  JTA buses delayed by a MetroBus which has stalled in the exit drive. These can happen anytime, anywhere however in this situation they'll be magnified.  The majority of the people will not remember the 363 days they came through the station hassle free, they'll tell everyone about the 2  days they were delayed 30 minutes because of a yahoo.  I see the need for compactness, I believe in it, however lets not immediately sacrifice future expansion and comfort and easy access for a plan that will work best today. 
Also, with weather patterns changing and everyone agreeing that we will begin seeing storms we aren't used to, maybe putting all of eggs in the basket next to McCoys Creek isn't the best idea.  Sandy taught all of us in NYC a huge lesson, and even though most has been rebuilt, parts of Whitehall Terminal and the South Street Station are still badly damaged with replacements not likely til 2016-2020. 
And finally, if you'll look at your list of intermodal terminals, EVERY single one in Manhattan plus Jamaica Station in Queens and Atlantic Station in Brooklyn are at or over capacity.  Jacksonville has the one shot to get it right, which is not their current plan, but to me neither is putting everything into one spot. I use these transit systems everyday and as a commuter, and Greyhound/Amtrak traveler, I Feel it would get congested very quickly.

[thelakelander]

Being that COJ owns lots of property there, wouldn't it be better to site Greyhound on the block between Forsyth, Johnson, Bay and Lee streets?  Then you could put JTA on same block as Skyway.  Possibly build parking garage between Skyway and I-95 or one in the current convention center lot.  This would still leave people having to cross Bay Street, but seems like a good compromise that would keep convention center at Prime Osborne for now.

That block would be better than the current Greyhound site.  However, it would still be a second terminal.  As for crossing Bay, just put up a pedestrian signal. Issue solved!

[Jason]

I've never though of the idea of adding Greyhound to Rosa Parks.  Makes some sence given the site is already primed for busses.

How may arrivals/departures does the current Greyhound station handle in a day?  Anyone know?