St. Augustine commission supports commuter rail to Jacksonville

[simms3]

^^^Correct MARTA doesn't operate MCIs, but operators of MCIs in the metro drop passengers off at MARTA stations under agreements between the authorities (you know, the whole transfer thing?).  There are folks who won't get on any bus just like there are folks who will never ditch their car for any form of alternative transportation, but there is a demographic difference between folks that use city buses in the south and folks commuting in from suburbs on MCIs, and the latter resembles choice riders of a rail system more than captured riders on city buses (in fact MCI fares are often higher than rail fares).

I'm sure SJC and Clay have great systems, heavily used and all (JTA's system is one of the most sparsely used in the country), but do you think they adequately help people commute from their exurban counties into Duval?  I'd rather see strings of MCIs going down HOV lanes on 95 than invest hundreds of millions on a rail system that will be used by hundreds, maybe a few thousand, and likely not spur that much economic development (just guessing from the investment side that it wouldn't draw much interest).

[thelakelander]

The North Corridor would be a ripe spot for TOD.  The S-Line offers tons of redevelopment opportunity between the Trout River and Downtown.  Springfield Warehouse District, Jax Zoo, Imeson, River City Marketplace area, Shands Jacksonville, Edward Waters College, Beaver Street warehouse district, Trout River waterfront, etc. Since it would operate as a hybrid rail system with shorter headways, it would be somewhat closer to what the Oceanside Sprinter, Ausin MetroRail or New Jersey RiverLine is than Tri-Rail or Dallas' TRE.

On the FEC, depending on the type of service, St. Augustine, Flagler Center, Avenues Walk, Baymeadows, JTB are all locations where infill would easily be viable.  Flagler Center and Avenues Walk really stand out as great opportunities. Infrastructure is already in place at Flagler Center and in the past, Avenues Walk's future phase has been designed as mixed-use TOD.  Both of those could easily be urban versions of Bartram Park, that still appeal to suburbanites and people working nearby.

To me, the major challenge this corridor faces is the unknown with Amtrak, All Aboard Florida and JTA's push for BRT paralleling it on Philips between DT and Avenues Mall.  If BRT is built on that corridor and something like Amtrak or AAF provides service between Jax and St. Augustine, what would be the point of investing in a third layer of transit on that particular corridor while starving other areas of the city? 

From a transportation planning perspective, the SW corridor (CSX A Line) stands out to me.  Clay County has the worst commutes in the state, Blanding and Roosevelt are parking lots during rush hour, NAS Jax is the region's largest single site employer and the context of Murray Hill, the CoRK area and North Riverside create a decent opportunity for small scale redevelopment, adaptive use and infill. 

Anyway, we're still talking 2020 and beyond.  There's a lot that can change between now and then.

[ProjectMaximus]

I am just not sure that Jax as a whole is "ready" for intercity urban or intracity regional rail. 

Isn't this backwards? I am not nitpicking, I'm actually just uncertain and want clarification. Based on the prefixes, I assume inter-city is regional and intra-city is urban.

[tufsu1]

I'm sure SJC and Clay have great systems, heavily used and all (JTA's system is one of the most sparsely used in the country), but do you think they adequately help people commute from their exurban counties into Duval? 

you got to start somewhere simms.

fact is both systems are small, but they have enjoyed explosive growth....since 2009 (when the system truly got going), Clay Transit ridership has increased from 15,000 trips a year to nearly 60,000 trips.

meanwhile, ridership on the St. Johns Sunshine Bus system (more mature having started in 2000) increased from 171,000 in 2009 to 240,000 in 2012....and included in this is the Purple route which goes up Philips Hwy and connects with JTA at the Avenues Mall.

both systems would like to expand routes and frequency....but that costs money...and since we all know that transit doesn't come close to breaking even, finding adequate continual funding is a challenge

btw....I suggest you take a look at farebox recovery ratios for various forms of transit...I think what you'll find is that commuter rail tends to have the best % recovery, meaning fares cover a higher proportion of operating expenses.

[JayBird]

Great thread.

So I am not in any transit oriented industry, however I see that it is common agreement that nothing will happen for almost a decade.  Why is this?  Is that commuter rail study they did not enough? If someone like AAF were to decide they wanted to setup this system just as its laid out (obviously in an alternate universe, but just trying to understand).  Or if Carlos Slim decided he wanted to get in on the transit industry so he wrote a check to JTA for $1B ... would it still take that long?

As for express buses, great idea.  It is my understanding that by this fall I'll be able to drive down 220, board an express JTA bus and go right DT to work.  Awesome.  Whats even more awesome?  That in every rendering I've seen, there is a nice little bldg marked "Possible Future Commuter Rail Station".

Looking at it from an "outsiders" view (I split my time between Fleming Island and SoHo, NYC) I think the reason nothing happens with this is that you have two camps.  One camp is saying "lets build this, not for today. but for tomorrow.  Not for me, but for my kids.  Make the future a more livable city".  In the other camp, you have the people saying "look, the people that elected me to be here do not need the rail or bus service today.  So let me work on what they are complaining about and come back to this when I need to."  The problem is they are both right, each side has valid defenses and objections.  Worst commuter times in Florida.  Okay, but remember a lot of people migrated here from cities where sitting an hour just to get through a tunnel or being pushed back an hour and a half trying to get around the DC beltway was an everyday fact of life.  There has to be a need.  The question is ... should Jax act on a future need or wait until it becomes an immediate need?  I commute from Eagle Harbor to DT every day and at most I've sat in maybe 15 minutes of traffic. 

I love the idea of commuter rail.  As a matter of fact, I want this:
1. Skyway extensions to Stadium ( I feel this will attract a lot of new development to that area as well as spurring transit and redevelopment up Phoenix area), Riverside, 8th Street, McDuff & Beaver area
2. Streetcar/Trolley service DT, Springfield, Avondale, Riverside, Brooklyn, LaVilla
3. dedicated (not sure terminology here but that it has its own lane and can pass by any traffic) BRT to the beaches, down 103rd, down Normandy, down Argyle Forest, down Blanding.
4.Some sort of water taxi service linking DT with zoo, with Ortega, Riverside, Arlington (JU Campus)

I believe all of these (with the exception of water taxi) will happen by 2033 (20yrs).  The same question applies, do you make the actions now to build.  Or do you wait until you have to build?

Being that it seems we have some real estate investment people on here and I just read an article about One WTC, do you build the building then lease it?  Or do you secure leases then build?

As always, I love reading this site and wish more people would pay attention to the ideas here because a lot of it just makes sense.  Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

[JayBird]

Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

[thelakelander]

Great thread.

So I am not in any transit oriented industry, however I see that it is common agreement that nothing will happen for almost a decade.  Why is this?  Is that commuter rail study they did not enough? If someone like AAF were to decide they wanted to setup this system just as its laid out (obviously in an alternate universe, but just trying to understand).  Or if Carlos Slim decided he wanted to get in on the transit industry so he wrote a check to JTA for $1B ... would it still take that long?

Funding is a major reason something like this would take years to implement.  It is assumed, we'd seek federal dollars and there is a timely process that includes completing several studies before it would be eligible for some sort of funding.  If Carlos Slim wrote a check to the JTA for a $1B, the issue changes but you can't plan on that happening. 

The timeline is why I wonder about BRT, Amtrak and AAF.  JTA seems hell bent on building BRT-lite down Philips and AAF is basically FEC's baby.  If the Orlando/Miami line is successful in 2015, they already own the tracks and rolling stock to extend north to Jax, St. Augustine, Daytona, etc. with 60 minute headways.  They also have the cash JTA does not and the land along the tracks and a real estate development firm for TOD. So by 2020, they could possibly be running their own intercity service down the FEC (connecting DT Jax to DT St. Augustine) while JTA is running BRT-lite from DT Jax to Avenues Mall.  If that scenario happens, I'm not confident commuter rail where the majority of destinations, excluding Northern St. Johns County, makes a ton of sense.

Looking at it from an "outsiders" view (I split my time between Fleming Island and SoHo, NYC) I think the reason nothing happens with this is that you have two camps.  One camp is saying "lets build this, not for today. but for tomorrow.  Not for me, but for my kids.  Make the future a more livable city".  In the other camp, you have the people saying "look, the people that elected me to be here do not need the rail or bus service today.  So let me work on what they are complaining about and come back to this when I need to."  The problem is they are both right, each side has valid defenses and objections.  Worst commuter times in Florida.  Okay, but remember a lot of people migrated here from cities where sitting an hour just to get through a tunnel or being pushed back an hour and a half trying to get around the DC beltway was an everyday fact of life.  There has to be a need.  The question is ... should Jax act on a future need or wait until it becomes an immediate need?  I commute from Eagle Harbor to DT every day and at most I've sat in maybe 15 minutes of traffic.

If you're planning for the immediate, you're too late.  You should always plan for the future and the future suggests that there's a need, as well as a desire for Jacksonville to have a different development pattern.  You can't alter that development pattern without including the infrastructure and land use policies that influence that change.  From my view, we're simply a decade or so behind most peer communities in discussing and planning for this type of infrastructure.  On the surface, it seems like little has been done but there has been a great deal of change over the last five or six years.  However, funding remains the primary challenge. 

[JayBird]

Thank you lake, now I understand.  So basically, the federal government sets the pace.  He whom possesses the checkbook, possesses the world.

[simms3]

btw....I suggest you take a look at farebox recovery ratios for various forms of transit...I think what you'll find is that commuter rail tends to have the best % recovery, meaning fares cover a higher proportion of operating expenses.

Which brings up another question since we know whatever transit we put in won't be "profitable" - will the conservative folks of Jax be more concerned about the fare box recovery % or the usefulness/ridership of the system?  I also tend to doubt that most will put 2 and 2 together should any "economic development" occur along the route, so they'll look at the system alone.

My concerns are that fresh off the decades of the Skyway blunder, people will be looking for a system that works and actually moves people from point A to point B, and my concern is that while commuter rail will be cheaper and efficient, serving that purpose, not that many will take it and it could be seen as another blunder.

[simms3]

Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

We're largely on the same page, having more "fresh" outsider perspectives.  There basically is no traffic in Jax, something I've harped on, so the "need" isn't pressing and it could be argued isn't there, so you have to have a perfect system that shines in the public's eye in some way.  Also, we're on the same page with busses, which are very useful if implemented correctly (JTA nor any of the transit authorities have figured out the routes, stations, marketing or ridership perks yet).  Of course very few cities in America have city bus systems used mostly by rich professionals (NYC, SF, Chicago, DC, Boston, Seattle), but most major cities do have express bus networks (maybe not operated by the city transit authority, but outlying authorities) that operate successfully, moving park n ride professsionals into the CBDs.  I've heard the term "commuter bus" as well, because express busses could just be a city route with limited stops.

[Ocklawaha]

Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

Sorry but since we are going technical here, MCI's, Eagle, VanHool, Setra, MAN nor Prevost are 'buses' they are 'motor coaches.' The difference is big... huge! I spent a large chunk of last weekend on a new MCI J-4500 with facing seats and tables in the rear. VERY NICE COACH. Though I prefer Eagles, or Silver Eagles, or Prevost. Most of the new Greyhound coaches in that two tone blue paint are Prevost products.

[tufsu1]

My concerns are that fresh off the decades of the Skyway blunder, people will be looking for a system that works and actually moves people from point A to point B, and my concern is that while commuter rail will be cheaper and efficient, serving that purpose, not that many will take it and it could be seen as another blunder.

and that is why you the studies are necessary...a key one will be the investment grade ridership study

[JayBird]

Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

Sorry but since we are going technical here, MCI's, Eagle, VanHool, Setra, MAN nor Prevost are 'buses' they are 'motor coaches.' The difference is big... huge! I spent a large chunk of last weekend on a new MCI J-4500 with facing seats and tables in the rear. VERY NICE COACH. Though I prefer Eagles, or Silver Eagles, or Prevost. Most of the new Greyhound coaches in that two tone blue paint are Prevost products.

Thank you Ock, can always be counted on to keep us on point.  Yes, the only buses I ride are in the NYC-DC areas when Amtraks Acela and Northeast Corridor are having issues (there is that OPTIONS thing again, don't know why JTA doesn't get it).  Over the past few years the MCI's are fading ... IDK where VanHool came from but they are rapidly selling to fleets in that area.  The iconic double decker MegaBus is a VanHool.  And that brings up another point, everytime I read a post or watch a YouTube video of councilpersons speaking, every one loves buses.  They claim quick to set up, cheaper to operate, and my favorite "they are 'adaptable' to the changing community environments".  Whoever came up with that pitch earned their paycheck bc I have heard countless times.  So then, how come since it is so much better why don't we have intercity bus service such as MegaBus (currently you can go to Atlanta or Orlando and make a connection to go to Gainesville.  Is it bc Greyhound does that?  I spent some time today on google learning a little about this commuter bus idea and I agree that Jacksonville is more like a school bus operator than a mass transit agency.  I found stuff like Buses on Shoulders, dedicated highways specifically for buses, and learned a little more about BRT.  My biggest lesson of the day, BRT is not used like JTA has planned.  For instance, I saw a map that shows BRT service down Philips to the Avenues Mall.  Other agencies it seems give this the name of Express or Commuter or Limited service because that is what it is providing, a modified bus route.  What other agencies seem to use BRT for is similar to what the Flagler Flyer use to do, start and westside picking up people connecting from the southbound buses it crosses, cross Buckman and make a few more stops while connecting to transit services on that side of river. 

So, basically I am understanding it right, bus service connects to your destination.  BRT fills the gap that convential routes inevitably always have or providing service to a highly used corridor.

Another thing I noticed, a lot of other agencies push transit on their tourists through advertising, ticket perks, reduced fare with hotel room key that kind of thing.  Does anyone know if JTA does this?  Can you be staying at the Hyatt downtown and decide you'd like to see a Jaguar and board a bus to the zoo?  If so, is it known or do you have to research schedules to make it work? 

And finally, getting back to the topic of this thread, I noticed other areas would have you purchase one ticket for a St Aug to Jax ride.  For instance, even though I board Sunshine in Auggie and change to JTA at Avenues, I only bought one ticket and it was honored by the other agency.  Is that the purpose of this regional panel?  Or one of them?  And now that I'm thinking of it, I am surprised Sunshine and Clay Transit don't stop picking up at the county line and run straight to Rosa Parks ... I would think that would be a full ride at least once a day. 

[Ocklawaha]

...There are folks who won't get on any bus just like there are folks who will never ditch their car for any form of alternative transportation, but there is a demographic difference between folks that use city buses in the south and folks commuting in from suburbs on MCIs, and the latter resembles choice riders of a rail system more than captured riders on city buses (in fact MCI fares are often higher than rail fares).

While they may 'resemble' the riders on a rail system, the fact remains that many times those numbers will ride rail and not touch a city bus or express motor coach. in the ridership game, when all things are equal, rail consistently crushes the competition.

I'm sure SJC and Clay have great systems, heavily used and all (JTA's system is one of the most sparsely used in the country), but do you think they adequately help people commute from their exurban counties into Duval? 

As a matter of fact they do help. The problem in St. Johns or Clay is that the average person doesn't know they even have transit. For theses who know, the interchanges at The Avenues and Orange Park Mall work very well.

I'd rather see strings of MCIs going down HOV lanes on 95 than invest hundreds of millions on a rail system that will be used by hundreds, maybe a few thousand, and likely not spur that much economic development (just guessing from the investment side that it wouldn't draw much interest).

"...by hundreds, maybe a few thousand..." So lets assume that the system hits a high note of 3,000 daily riders, with a maximum seating of 57 per MCI, you would prefer us having 53 motor coaches on the road every morning and every evening. Capital cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $34 million dollars for 53 motor coaches, but that isn't really much of a concern - it's the 53 drivers that are going to cost us, and that isn't going away anything soon.

Either way, neither will make a dent in the daily traffic count, so it comes down to 3,000 people stuck on a coach, stuck in traffic, or 3,000 people on rail cars, moving at 79 mph.

If you seek to relieve those 53 coaches of traffic by employment of true gold standard BRT/HOV or Lexus Lanes, then your capital costs shoot skyward to the neighborhood of rail. The difference is rail will last you for 50-100 years, pavement punished by heavy vehicles about 10 years.

Lastly, national experience has shown that rail stations tend to be the epicenter of new vibrant growth, so far only the Silver Line BRT in Cleveland can lay claim to that type of development. The Silver Line is feed by light rail and the largely unpublished fact is about 80% of all 'growth' is in government services. If you want to claim Cleveland has obtained rail-like results with BRT, then the formula is to build gold standard BRT, follow that with a few dozen federal, state, county and city offices and publicize a 'smashing TOD success.'

If you REALLY want to see success with motor coaches, use them as pre-rail express buses, as rail feeders, and most of all, routes like JTB, BEACH, ATLANTIC/ARLINGTON EXPRESSWAY, MIDDLEBURG/ARGYLE...ETC.

[thelakelander]

The line in Cleveland is the Health Line. The "TOD" is in University Circle, which includes multiple medical campuses, major museums and universities. That area also has two heavy rail stops. I have a hard time calling new dormitories, hospital bed expansions (is BMC's new tower a TOD because it's near the Skyway?) TOD. I'll provide a more detailed response in a few weeks. In June, i'll be staying in a hotel in University Circle and I'm using both rail and bus to get around during my three days in town.